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  • #46
    Originally posted by Malek View Post
    And you know for a fact that it came from someone wearing a green 'cap'.

    Personally Mate, I doubt it did..You know the media and all:wink:

    I was talking to one of the Guys before he went to Chad..and they are seeking ONLY what they think they are entitled to..

    Comment


    • #47
      The intention is not to put anybody down least of all the DF. However raising concerns and debate and objective evaluation is another issue that in the long run supports the development of the DF. Lack of which allows complacency, self satisfaction and inertia to set in.Otherwise armies would be still be wearing red uniforms and pith helmets.
      There is an element of they are so good that they can do no wrong or Irish troops have a way about them that they can always talk themselves out of trouble or we are Irish so are neutral so we will not be harmed, we have no colonial history etc. That in many ways may eb true but is not related to our militay capacity.
      = Having said that I have been very proud to hear very good feedback from various sources many of whom were well qualified to compare and judge re our troops in places like Somalia and Liberia,, However troops, units armies cannot rest on their laurels. For the Irish who have not been engaged in combat it is even more important as we do not have the opportunity and the continous challenge to adjust, adapt and devlop from battle experience.
      As regards fatalities on such missions , our casualtity in Liberia was from a driving accident and in East Timor from an AD RIP to both of them, .. when there were casualties in the Leb I well remember a public debate on whether our troops should even be there.
      I am not sure how Joe Public would react to 10-15 cas, coming out of Chad a place that most people could not find on a map.
      Its not a pissing contest and attempting to make it one distracts from the discussion

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by BANDIT View Post
        The intention is not to put anybody down least of all the DF. However raising concerns and debate and objective evaluation is another issue that in the long run supports the development of the DF. Lack of which allows complacency, self satisfaction and inertia to set in.Otherwise armies would be still be wearing red uniforms and pith helmets.
        There is an element of they are so good that they can do no wrong or Irish troops have a way about them that they can always talk themselves out of trouble or we are Irish so are neutral so we will not be harmed, we have no colonial history etc. That in many ways may eb true but is not related to our militay capacity.
        = Having said that I have been very proud to hear very good feedback from various sources many of whom were well qualified to compare and judge re our troops in places like Somalia and Liberia,, However troops, units armies cannot rest on their laurels. For the Irish who have not been engaged in combat it is even more important as we do not have the opportunity and the continous challenge to adjust, adapt and devlop from battle experience.
        As regards fatalities on such missions , our casualtity in Liberia was from a driving accident and in East Timor from an AD RIP to both of them, .. when there were casualties in the Leb I well remember a public debate on whether our troops should even be there.
        I am not sure how Joe Public would react to 10-15 cas, coming out of Chad a place that most people could not find on a map.
        Its not a pissing contest and attempting to make it one distracts from the discussion
        I cannot believe that an alleged "grad and post grad" can post this shit!

        Comment


        • #49
          If its on boards.ie it must be true!

          Comment


          • #50
            guys guys guys

            BANDIT (and a certain tank driver on boards.ie) raise fair points; nobody's perfect and everyone can learn from their mistakes.

            the guys got away this time (with a combination of luck/skill/diplomacy in what proportion none of us really know) but I am sure there are lessons to be learnt.

            no i couldnt do it any better myself, but to knock everyone who raises questions is a bad attitude to have.

            Comment


            • #51
              The intention is not to put anybody down least of all the DF.
              Bollox.You have done nothing BUT put down the D.F from its choice of rifle in other threads to its choice of operating here.

              However raising concerns and debate and objective evaluation is another issue that in the long run supports the development of the DF. Lack of which allows complacency, self satisfaction and inertia to set in.Otherwise armies would be still be wearing red uniforms and pith helmets.
              I agree with you there but there is a difference between constructive criticism and put downs.

              There is an element of they are so good that they can do no wrong or Irish troops have a way about them that they can always talk themselves out of trouble or we are Irish so are neutral so we will not be harmed, we have no colonial history etc. That in many ways may eb true but is not related to our militay capacity.
              I also agree with that point.However we are WELL able to fight if we need to and the Ranger wing ARE the best trained in the Defence forces.How do you know that in the situation that happened in that village that didnt know the Militia werent already there?They have been gathereing intel for months.How do you know that the small element that entered that village werent sent in to provoke a respons efrom the militia?To force a reaction as it were?Not being agressive as such just forcing their response for better or worse.Now they have made a contact that wasnt htere before.Also tactically they had a stand off cover group armed with everything from sniper rifles to HMG's.Not bad if push comes to shove.Of course how do i know this.I dont,but then again neither does anyone here as we were NOT there.As i said before too much armchair generaling around here!

              = Having said that I have been very proud to hear very good feedback from various sources many of whom were well qualified to compare and judge re our troops in places like Somalia and Liberia,, However troops, units armies cannot rest on their laurels. For the Irish who have not been engaged in combat it is even more important as we do not have the opportunity and the continous challenge to adjust, adapt and devlop from battle experience.
              True ,but as a neutral country that not our fault.We can only send our instructors to train with hose who DO have that experience and bring it back.Which we do,Dont underestimate the irish fighting man though.

              As regards fatalities on such missions , our casualtity in Liberia was from a driving accident and in East Timor from an AD RIP to both of them, .. when there were casualties in the Leb I well remember a public debate on whether our troops should even be there.
              Whats your point? a casualty is a casualty,no matter what causes it.The show will still go.Thats how we honour those who go before us.By carrying on that which they were a part of.

              I am not sure how Joe Public would react to 10-15 cas, coming out of Chad a place that most people could not find on a map.
              Joe public would react the same way he did when Niemba happened and all the deaths since.They would be sympathetic for those who died but proud of them and tha sacrifice they made.But the show would go on.

              Its not a pissing contest and attempting to make it one distracts from the discussion
              Agreed.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by apod View Post
                Whats your point? a casualty is a casualty,no matter what causes it.The show will still go.Thats how we honour those who go before us.By carrying on that which they were a part of.

                Joe public would react the same way he did when Niemba happened and all the deaths since.They would be sympathetic for those who died but proud of them and tha sacrifice they made.But the show would go on.
                Eh......no. If 20 lads came back in body bags every tv show and news outlet would be asking the question "What did they die for?" and campaigning to bring the troops home. The Brits and Americans have a hard time justifying casualties in ones and twos from the war on terror, but EUFOR is a rather shaky venture (how many people you stop on the street could tell you what EUFOR's mission is? or even where Chad is?) which could very easily lose public support. This might come as a shock to you, but the government cares a lot more about public opinion than the opinion of the members of the DF.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Ranger Wing SF Pay

                  154 Euro weekly is not to be sniffed at. Yes they are on operations in Africa but that also attracts some good allowances. The Irish Army on the whole get paid a significant sum more than, say, UK counterparts whilst on Ops. In relation to the ranger wing and retention than their chain of command should address this at grass roots and speak candidly to the bean counters in the DOD. Suggested solution would be a golden hand shake on completion of skills, and a 2 tier pay band for additional allowances(SF Pay). More experience Op tours etc attracts higher rates.
                  Ranger in Chad - you must be busy to be bleeting to the press, stop whining, serve to be professional, money should'nt be a factor mate!!! If you want more money then go run the gautlet in Iraq protecting trucks and civi convoys.....Airborne

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Parasigs View Post
                    154 Euro weekly is not to be sniffed at. Yes they are on operations in Africa but that also attracts some good allowances. The Irish Army on the whole get paid a significant sum more than, say, UK counterparts whilst on Ops. In relation to the ranger wing and retention than their chain of command should address this at grass roots and speak candidly to the bean counters in the DOD. Suggested solution would be a golden hand shake on completion of skills, and a 2 tier pay band for additional allowances(SF Pay). More experience Op tours etc attracts higher rates.
                    Ranger in Chad - you must be busy to be bleeting to the press, stop whining, serve to be professional, money should'nt be a factor mate!!! If you want more money then go run the gautlet in Iraq protecting trucks and civi convoys.....Airborne


                    Were talking about the ARW, not Conventional Troops.. Yes We are paid well for Overseas missions, but the fact remains that the ARW do not get Paid on par to International Special Forces for their skill level compared to other SF's.

                    154 euros is not to be sniffed at but if your commuting to and from the curragh and some of them do, filling the petrol/diesel tank would take a fair amount of that each week.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Eh......no. If 20 lads came back in body bags every tv show and news outlet would be asking the question "What did they die for?" and campaigning to bring the troops home.
                      Mate what country are you living in?Since when did the government here give a damn about what any of us think.Look at the HSE/shannon airport etc etc.


                      The Brits and Americans have a hard time justifying casualties in ones and twos from the war on terror,
                      They are taking more than that and it still doesnt affect their [policies.

                      but EUFOR is a rather shaky venture (how many people you stop on the street could tell you what EUFOR's mission is? or even where Chad is?) which could very easily lose public support. This might come as a shock to you, but the government cares a lot more about public opinion than the opinion of the members of the DF.
                      I doubt that what with the public information campaign that the dept have waged discretely for the last few months.The late lates show had its highest viewing figures ever the night the D.F was on.No,no shock.I know what they think of us.Cheap labour to be used and thats it.Maybe thats why people inside are starting to get pissed off.
                      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
                        154 euros is not to be sniffed at but if your commuting to and from the curragh and some of them do, filling the petrol/diesel tank would take a fair amount of that each week.
                        ARW members (ie those in the unit) have to leave within a set distance of DFTC.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          ARW members (ie those in the unit) have to leave within a set distance of DFTC.
                          Correct...I can't remember how far/time is allocated ...Don't forget these guys have family cars that still take 50+ euros to fill.. If I was to travel to the curragh from where I live it would cost me approx 60Euros per week on fuel costs alone.
                          Last edited by Craghopper; 27 May 2008, 01:09. Reason: Ammended because of confusion.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
                            Correct...I can't remember how far/time is allocated but AFAIK I'm within it ...Don't forget these guys have family cars that still take 50+ euros to fill..

                            Where I live and the travel to and from work and then the normal driving at home(Shopping etc) it would cost me 60 euro approx per week..


                            I hope you understand what I'm saying here..
                            Sure do, there should parity of pay and allowances for Irish Rangers against International Sandards, such as the US SF and UK SF communities...
                            "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Any of you boys read combat survival magazine? has articles from inside chad at the moment,, not a good place to be,,these rebels arent farmers from west cork at all there battle hardened troops,, there walking over chadian forces who are usiing Isreali RAM APCs against 4x4technicals!!!! also the french have eyes in the sky out there,, so why did paddy get surrounded by a force of 200/300 rebels forces??? anyway its a great read get it!!!

                              And as a point i agree with the ranger,, we could never pay them enough for what they go through and put on the line,,, them ranger and his family
                              Last edited by johnny no stars; 27 May 2008, 00:40.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
                                Correct...I can't remember how far/time is allocated but AFAIK I'm within it ...Don't forget these guys have family cars that still take 50+ euros to fill..

                                Where I live and the travel to and from work and then the normal driving at home(Shopping etc) it would cost me 60 euro approx per week..


                                I hope you understand what I'm saying here..
                                And where do you work, oh enlightened one? Or is that what you wanted us to understand....
                                Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
                                Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
                                Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
                                Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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