Naval air ops no more?

[Goldie fish]

And how much would it cost to replace the skids with wheels? You have never seen a heli landing on a small warship in heavy seas I assume. Its too small to be of any use. What would we use it for? Argentina use it for training and over the Horizon targeting. It would cost the same as an EC135 with its radar.

[thebig C]

no problem with skids

And how much would it cost to replace the skids with wheels? You have never seen a heli landing on a small warship in heavy seas I assume. Its too small to be of any use. What would we use it for? Argentina use it for training and over the Horizon targeting. It would cost the same as an EC135 with its radar.

It doesn't appear to be necessary to replace the skids.






This is how they're moved from the helideck into the hangar.



The Argentinian Navy use AS555SNs on their MEKO 360 H2 destroyers and MEKO 140 A16 corvettes. They have participated in numerous national and international exercises, including with the U.S. Navy, and have been away from their home bases for periods of up to 6 months. Apart from training and OTH targeting, the Argentinians use them for maritime surveillance and SAR.

[Goldie fish]

Its not a very useful sar asset, given its size. Most you could carry is two survivors...

Its fine when working as part of a Naval Flotilla, perhaps as gaurd aircraft for an aircraft carrier, but in real world SAR, not much use. We have Fixed wing to do Surveillance, it does the job better. Otherwise a UAV could do the exact same job, for cheaper.

Is there an echo here, or am I repeating myself?


is there an echo here, or am I repeating myself?

[mutter nutter]

The Argentines use them because they are cheap, the same way the still use A-4 skyhawks, they can't really afford to operate Seahawks, NH-90's or any other proper modern naval helicopter, it would frankly be a step in the wrong direction to go for AS555's as NAS, you either do it right or not at all, GF's right UAV's would give you the same surrveillence capabilities as these heli's, you want something more then that, you would want to get much more capable one's

[pym]

Carrington, I don't know why you insist on comparing the price of Fennecs to the AW139. They are different aircraft for different roles.

Again, here you are proposing an aircraft for the Defense Forces. But the most pertinent question in all this is: do the Navy want, or require OTHT, Observation & SAR helicopters?

Do you have any information in this regard?

[Farel']

Again, here you are proposing an aircraft for the Defense Forces. But the most pertinent question in all this is: do the Navy want, or require OTHT, Observation & SAR helicopters?

Of course the Navy want & require the capability but can the State & Defence Forces get its act together to provide and pay for it? Ireland is the only State in Western Europe WITHOUT an organice NavaL Air Capability and yet it has the largest Exclusive Economic Zone area per capita.

[thebig C]

The Argentines use them because they are cheap, the same way the still use A-4 skyhawks, they can't really afford to operate Seahawks, NH-90's or any other proper modern naval helicopter, it would frankly be a step in the wrong direction to go for AS555's as NAS, you either do it right or not at all, GF's right UAV's would give you the same surrveillence capabilities as these heli's, you want something more then that, you would want to get much more capable one's

What's 'right'? At the moment we do not have any naval helicopters. One of the reasons for that seems to be the failure of the Eithne/Dauphin experience, and the other is cost. What's wrong with cheap, if it does the job? In fact public servants - including those in the Defence Forces - are obliged to buy the cheapest option, provided it meets the requirements. Given that it's your money and mine and everyone else's that they're spending, isn't that the way it should be?

A Seahawk or an NH90 would cost in the region of €30 million. An AS555 costs about €5 million. Would a Seahawk or an NH90 provide 6 times the capability of an AS555? Furthermore, these are bigger, heavier helicopters, requiring bigger, stronger helidecks and hangar space. The new Naval Service OPVs will probably be similar in size to Niamh and Róisín, about 80 metres, so a smaller helicopter would be more suitable.

There are few if any alternatives to the AS555 in the light naval helicopter market. A109 maybe? Otherwise you have to take a step up in terms of weight and cost to a Lynx or a Panther.

[Goldie fish]

USCG are using the A109.

What do you want the helis to do? Apart from look nice parked on the helideck in anything more than a force 2.

There are many options in Naval heli before you reach the Seahawk or NH90.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. The MNH90 would provide 20 times the capability of the fennec(Remember a similar type is soon to retire from GASU service. Having flown in same, I have to say they are Tiny. Only a slight improvment from the Gazelle.)

[thebig C]

what can a shipborne helicopter do?

Shipborne naval helicopters can contribute to the following naval roles:

• Search and rescue
• Maritime Surveillance
• Fishery Protection
• Pollution Monitoring and Control
• Anti-smuggling
• Anti-submarine and anti-ship warfare
• Humanitarian assistance/disaster relief
• Border protection
• Amphibious operations
• Utility tasks, including transport of supplies internally or underslung, and transport of personnel, including insertion of Special Forces or other specialist teams

Seems pretty useful to me. Probably more useful than a 76mm gun.

[Turkey]

Shipborne naval helicopters can contribute to the following naval roles:

• Search and rescue
• Maritime Surveillance
• Fishery Protection
• Pollution Monitoring and Control
• Anti-smuggling
• Anti-submarine and anti-ship warfare
• Humanitarian assistance/disaster relief
• Border protection
• Amphibious operations
• Utility tasks, including transport of supplies internally or underslung, and transport of personnel, including insertion of Special Forces or other specialist teams

Seems pretty useful to me. Probably more useful than a 76mm gun.

Only if a real helicopter were used not a micky mouse Fennec.
The NS should operate it's own fleet of Lynx at a minimum
and probably the NH90 if P31's flight deck suited it[it does'ent]

[Goldie fish]

It should have been Lynx from day one.

[hptmurphy]

I think if you read 'Fifty years a Ship builder' by Patrick Martin you will see that the concept of the lynx was declared obselete at the time.Also if you take the time to read what the authour says ..he establishes the concerns other people including the AC views on putting medium helos on small ships giving the constraints of limited capability single engine helos on small ships..pilots just don't want to do it...and more to the point ....designers want no part in it.

The Indians tried to build a P31 copy and wanted more power engine wise....hull form didn't help..the wanted to put Allouettes on this surface...pilots wouldn't do it..just wasn't plausible.

Quote all the examples you like...nice to put any helo on any deck in flat calm conditions..but then again ..do we ever need them in those conditions or mores to the point do we ever have ideal conditions.

For the rare occasions when a 90 to 100 metre vessel could operate effectively a medium to small helo ion the type of seas witnessed by our fleet..whats the point..I think you have to see for real what the realities are..not just accept the sales pitch..after all the two governement agencies and a government department experienced this type of failure in the not too distant past.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi Goldie
Couldnt agree with you more.The Lynx is such a capable aircraft, even though it's old as designs go....don't sneer small helis.Look what the Westland Scout/Wasp achieved, even though it was/is heavier than it's nearest equivalent. Even the old Bo-105 is still a good aircraft;it's fast, twin-engined, reliable, small, has an aft-cargo bay with clamshell doors and is built tough....the Dauphin was ill-starred for so many reasons and infighting between the Ac and NS didn't help.
regards
GttC

[Goldie fish]

I thought you said you were agreeing with me GttC

[hptmurphy]

the original drawings on the ship showed lynx..but the DoD and the Ac changed their minds..nothing to do with the NS..