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Naval air ops no more?

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  • #31
    Oh christ the experts are giving lessons on naval aviation .......
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • #32
      I would be reluctant to send Eithne to Fight fires on Oil or gas rigs. She has monitors,but rig fires have other nasty issues,which are better attended to by purpose built vessels.
      The fact that she has pyrotechnics stored on deck probably wouldnt be great either...


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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      • #33
        Oh christ the experts are giving lessons on naval aviation .......
        I'm just pointing out the fact its difficult and expensive.I'm actually coming down on the side of not bothering with helicopters and saying the CASAs are sufficient, which is unusual for me since I'm normally the one in favour of spending lots of cash on things that will never be used.
        Si vis pacem para bellum

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        • #34
          And i'm coming down on the side that I've given two years disscussing this point from the point of view of someone who gave most of his service on board the ship that was supposed to be carrying the helo and can count on two hands the amount of times it was there.

          I know the failings from both sides...but I am sick tired of people posting on a thread that has been flogged to death in the past an if peolpe read past threads they also would be well aware of what went wrong rather than coming here wth half cocked ideas and trying to enlighten the bewildered on the subject!!!!!!! :
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • #35
            So are you for or againist?

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            • #36
              I'm for the idea myself, and I've one Q to ask. Can Eithne stow a Blackhawk on the hangar deck?

              Wishful thinking? Yes, definitely. But considering the massive amount of experience the USN ad the USCG has with 'hawk variants, and the slight, tiny, minute possibility that we might be getting them in IAC colours, it would be worth mulling over.
              If you have to do it, you always have to do it right. Either it makes a difference, or it’s good practice so that when it does make a difference, it gets done right.

              -Me.

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              • #37
                Eithnes deck will support a 5 tonne heli. The Blackhawk is about 8 tonne I think,and the dimensions of the helideck further restrict it.


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                • #38
                  Its not acase of being for or against ...its a case4 of what is realistic. Yes u can put a helo on the eithne but be aware of its limitations...afterall that was what the ship was designed for.


                  If you want to put a larger helo on a ship it has to be a bigger ship.

                  If a ship is going to operate a helo it must operate all of the time.

                  There must be sufficent helos that there is always one available to operate.

                  the experiment failed not because of the Nvy but because of the aircorps..Wrong helo

                  Wrong crews

                  not enough helos...no naval trained crews........lack of willingness to stand firmly behind the descision to operate a helo.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • #39
                    Would the Operation of the dauphin have been more successful if 244 and 245 were permanently based in Haulbowline? I thought it was unusual that no facilities existed on the Island for them. Did they ever even land in the football pitch?
                    Surely it would have made practical sense to be able to carry out any maintenance in Haulbowline,and Base the Air Corps crews there during deployment. That way they wouldnt have been rushing back to the don early to avoid the clondalkin traffic.
                    If i remember rightly,certain members of the government were fond of using the dauphin as their personal transport,further restricting the available aircraft. I mean at the height of its service,you had one in Shannon,providing 24 hour cover,one in dublin doing the same. Then the drunken politician demands to be brought back to his nest,and you have 2 helis remaining.Presumably these 2 are undergoing maintenance to ensure their availability for SAR...
                    Murf is right though. The ship must operate the heli all the time. It must be as much part of the equipment as the sea rider,because in practice it is just as important.
                    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

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                    • #40
                      the only place on the base that the dauphins were able to operate from was the square. I once carried out a piping party to the taoiseach on the square to the back drop of a dauphin...talk about stupidity!

                      The dauphins spent more time on ministerial transport duty than any thing else and 248 was the main machine used for this being fitted with nice blue carpets for a while.

                      Even the trans fer off aircorps crews to haulbowline would have been a waste of time as the machines were operated by the aircorps with a capability to operate from the ship.



                      the machines should have been assigned to the NS and naval crews should have been trained in all aspects of operation thus removing control of their operation from the aircorps.
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #41
                        I don't claim to be any expert in these matters that why I asked the question.

                        Apart from the fact the helicopter was hardly ever on Eithne,
                        What made the Dauphin / whole arrangement unsuitable?

                        As an aside, The Doherty Report on SAR in 1980/90s recommended that the NS Support helicopter be based in the Cork area (Airport/NS Base) when not deployed on Eithne. The Government accepted & started to implement this report. But then again it also recommended that the AC be equipped with medium range helicopter for SAR, and ONLY in the interim should civilian SAR contractors be used. Interim obviously took the same meaning it did in Lebanon - Long-Term.

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                        • #42
                          very simply... the ship was too small... the helo a heap of shit ...and the aircorps didn't want to be there in the first place!

                          the question was answered two posts ago!
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • #43
                            Real Orders For Real Gear Now!!!!!

                            Old Huffy Face is back. Could someone from RACO please let us ordinary supporters of the TOP GUNS know how many and what types [ LUH, MUH, H/SAR H ] did Price Waterhouse recommend?

                            The reason that I ask is that the Air Corps in the early eighties stated that they needed 10 LUH to replace 8 Allouettes, as well as 5 LUH for a Naval Support Squadron. With 65% EU funding,the Air Corps received 5!!!!!!! Janes put in a provisional drawing of an early design for the P-31 with a Lynx. This was susequently changed by Janes with a Dauphin and the design amended to show agreed P-31. Janes went on to state that 5 Dauphin were to be purchased and a small naval air arm established. This would be known as the IRISH NAVAL AIR SERVICE!!!!!!

                            Now, call me a stick-in-the-mud but JANES don't get things wrong. So we know that the guys know what they want but some pen pushing civil servant made a b-lls of the whole thing?

                            The sad reality of the history of this state is that the politicians don't give a rats ass about the defence of the nation. They slobber on about being a poor, small wee nation and that hospitals, roads & rail have priority. I am sick to death listening to the same sh-t from the 1950's.

                            We are supposed to be grateful when we get 8 training planes, 65 APCs, 24 second hand AA guns and 2 glorified trawlers after years of neglect. Jesus H Christ, we are going to get our asses kicked!!!!!

                            This new Minister for Defenceless had better get with the programme.

                            A few tips for Parkgate:

                            14 F-5 E/F $8 MILLION TO MEXICO

                            In future ask for like for like investment from the winning contractor, like everyone else does.

                            Place substantial bloody orders and stop phaffing around.

                            Where are they extra CASA mr aircraft urgently recommended by Price Waterhouse so Irish fishermen, merchant seamen etc can rely on our own government to provide 24 hour top cover?????

                            THE ANGER MANAGEMENT IS NOT WORKING!!!!!

                            SARSFIELD
                            Sarsfield

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                            • #44
                              the reason for the shortages of Dauphins was that we only ever ordered five....the rest is pure conjecture...so janes were slightly wide of the mark . yes the Eithne was primarily designed to operate sea Lynx...but as the IAC went ahead and bought the SA365fi this changed somewhat

                              The P31 was originally designed to operate the Lynx and the proof of this is that a lot of the Schematics through out the ship in the early days show Lynx although the builders brouchure from 84 features SA365fi. The hanger had to be rebuilt at one stage as the mast height on the dauphin is significantly higher than the lynx.

                              You won't get a reply from RACO or even a serving IAC officer because there are very few left in the service who remember the whole episode.

                              Point to note ...after recent inspection I doubt if the ship has the capability to operate a helo and will probably will never operate one again. the conversion of the helipad to a carry platfform for stores containers or extra boats seems to be the most viable scenario.
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • #45
                                Its a bit of a joke really. We've such a small navy and always will have, with such a large area to patrol. Helicopter carrying vessels are the only answer as the helos vastly increase the area each ship can cover.

                                It also makes a laugh of the concept of our neutrality when we are so beholden to the armed forces of our neighbour for so much help on occassion.

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