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View Poll Results: What is the future for Naval Aircraft In Ireland?

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  • Continue Naval Air Ops with a new Air Corps heli

    19 15.45%
  • Continue Naval Air Ops with New Naval services operated Helis

    66 53.66%
  • Continue with Helideck only on certain ships

    17 13.82%
  • Give up on the whole idea..the CASA does the job fine!

    21 17.07%
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  1. #51
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbpackers
    However shipborne Helos have abilities that the CASA cannot match. Evacuating personnel from another vessel for example.
    I can see where you're coming from, but that's what SAR helis are for.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  2. #52
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Very few Naval helis are used to evacuate personnel from other vessels. Most are only used as observation helis,or in the ASW role.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  3. #53
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    as far as Iknow it is only dedicated coastguard vessels use their helos in the SAR role and these usually have secodary tasking in obersvation role.

    The US coastguard actually sent a detachment to the eithne in early 1987 to see how we operated the dauphin from such a small platform >remember that at the time Eithne was the smallest Patrol Vessel in the world to be able to operate and hanger its owm helo. landimg decks were commonplace but ships of the class being able to hanger their own helos were unheard of!
    Time for another break I think......

  4. #54
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Most of the USCG Cutters have telescopic Hangars,which take up part of the landing deck when extended.

    BTW,the basin is being dredged at the moment to make room for larger Naval Vessels...


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  5. #55
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    BTW,the basin is being dredged at the moment to make room for larger Naval Vessels...
    most likely larger visiting ones
    Do you know goldie.. are the dauphins going to be actually stood down, mothballed or sold off, have we definitely seen the last of them?
    Last edited by morpheus; 1st November 2004 at 20:27.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  6. #56
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    The Dauphins are history & not before time.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  7. #57
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    There is nothing to rule out the chance of the LUH being available for Naval ops,should that decision be made.
    Is there even two Dauphins still fully operational? I know it was espected that to modernise the avionics(an urgent undertaking) would cost in excess of €1.5m Per aircraft.

    Visiting Naval vessels do not enter the basin. HMCS Algonquin went to the Oil Wharf when they were collecting the pom pom.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  8. #58
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    I think past experience would rule out the LUH being made available to the NS. I don't see the point in a return to flight ops from Eithne, the usefulness of having one heli on one vessel has to be questioned.

    Perhaps it would be better if future vessels had a flight deck & the ability to refuel other helis.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  9. #59
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    My thought would be to keep the crews familiar with Naval heli ops until a long term decision was made on its future..


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  10. #60
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Possible roles for naval helis:

    SAR (not all emergencies can be reached from shore bases)
    Fishery / Maritime Surveillance (as extention of vessels sensors)
    Vertical Replenishment
    Arms / Drug Interdiction
    Anti-submarine warfare
    Anti-Surface vessel warfare
    Training
    Landing army troops (eg exercises in off Donegal, Gormanston, Fort Davis)

  11. #61
    Commander-in-Chief futurepilot's Avatar
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    Just a quick point. Apparently one of the Dauphins is in Norway to be overhauled and given a life extention so the dauphins might be around for a while yet.
    Education isn't everything, for a start it isn't an elephant

  12. #62
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    they are to be sold off as the update cost per airframe is greater then the benefit that would be accumulated by any refurbishment. The machines have many airframe hours left and would probably be quite attractive to a civilian operator who could remove most of their specialized gear and operate them effectively.

    Please remember that the basic machine is excellent it was only the add on packages that the aircorps requested that rendered it unsuitable...these include a nav computer that required its own cooling fan whose weight nessecitated the removal of a fuel tank.....the aer corps were the architects of the down fall of the machine.
    Time for another break I think......

  13. #63
    dbpackers
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy
    Oh god the walters are at it again...what ASW capability...what submarine threat......
    I don't know of many armed trawlers either, so why do we need 76mm guns ? A couple of HMGs would be more than enough to deal with the threats encountered in the primary role. The same argument applied to the Army would see the removal of all AA capability (when's the last time Ireland was subject to Air Attack ?), all anti-tank weaponry ....


    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy
    the primary role of our Naval Service is fishery protection........
    With due attention directed to the word "primary", which does not perforce preclude secondary roles.
    Last edited by dbpackers; 2nd November 2004 at 18:36.

  14. #64
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Eh the army spends a lot more time in tank rich environments than the all domestic defence force some people seem to imagine.
    A lot of those funny looking foreigners that we all find so cute and amusing are quite grateful when the army shows up...so much so that one might even call the ability to defend both ourselves and those we take responsibility for on deployment a priority...as compared to say: things that look cool.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  15. #65
    dbpackers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Come-quickly
    Eh the army spends a lot more time in tank rich environments than the all domestic defence force some people seem to imagine.
    A lot of those funny looking foreigners that we all find so cute and amusing are quite grateful when the army shows up...so much so that one might even call the ability to defend both ourselves and those we take responsibility for on deployment a priority...as compared to say: things that look cool.
    Yes, but those deployments are not the "primary" role of the Army. We have no real reason to be deploying our troops outside of our borders .....

    Before I'm attacked let me make it clear that I fully support our overseas engagement and believe strongly that we should contribute more robustly.

    Your comment above actually makes the case for naval capabilities outside the strict requirements of the NS's primary role. The NS could contribute to our overseas efforts just as the Army does, but not if it doesn't have the capability.

  16. #66
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    How would operating the flying equivalent of a peugot 406 from Eithne better equip the eithne for either role?
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  17. #67
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I'd say its more like a Citroen Xsara..


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  18. #68
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    OK lets start with primary......lets give too pages dealing withnthe roles of the NS...on the other hand lets not...but in the lack of a direct threat of agressive war and some drug interdiction this is themain beneficila service that the NS provides.

    Given the limited scope that the army has some limited AA protection has to be provided and could be used in an overseas role in variuos other roles . the primary weapons on the NS vessels for FP have been dictated by the EU in the role. The vessels have been concieved as minor warefare vessels and are armed accordingly and are armed with practical weapons . ASW vessesl are specialised and have weapon fits that are appropriate to their concieved role..in the case of NS vessels asw is not a percieved role so there is not requirement.

    Why do I have to keep explaining the role and weapons fits of NS vessels when it is blatantly obvious that the said vessels have a very basic warfare capacity...could we please organise a guided tour in which all the idealists would be given what the actual capabilities of our NS is and how impossible it is for us to undertake the roles that some of the illusionists here percieve that role to be
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #69
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    all those who have spent time aboard NS vessels and are aware of the actual capabilities are ..hands up


    All those who haven't......**** off!

    I'm pissed off with your mindless rantings and wish that you would study the subject before you infuriate the rest of us with your valueless rantings on the current fleet.

    And all those who wish for great things for the NS .....you have **** all hope...this is as good as it gets ...now post on some thing else you are clearly out of your depth!
    Time for another break I think......

  20. #70
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Possibly worth mentioning at this point that Eithne is back at Haulbowline without her 57mm. The work in the drydock was speeded up to free up the dock for a cargo ship which was damaged in the recent storms.The New boats are not yet fitted either,however none of this work needs to be done in a specialised Dockyard. Also in the Dockyard is L.E. Roisin,which suffered some damage during the rescue attempt of the Canadian submarine. Photos to follow.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  21. #71
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    We have 76mm guns because they came with the two Peacock vessels when we bought them, for standardisation purposes it makes sense to equip new vessels with guns of the same caliber.

    Getting back to the point, it's all well & good to list the possible roles a ship-borne heli can operate in, but the reality is that the usefulness of a single HPV is questionable. If the NS had more of the P31 class things might have worked out, but as it stands there's little point in spending the money on putting a single heli on a single vessel.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  22. #72
    dbpackers
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy
    all those who have spent time aboard NS vessels and are aware of the actual capabilities are ..hands up


    All those who haven't......**** off!

    I'm pissed off with your mindless rantings and wish that you would study the subject before you infuriate the rest of us with your valueless rantings on the current fleet.

    And all those who wish for great things for the NS .....you have **** all hope...this is as good as it gets ...now post on some thing else you are clearly out of your depth!
    OK then. I was prepared to read your posts and give your opinion the respect it is due ..... but you obviously haven't mastered the art of civilised discussion.

    And remember, thats all this is, a discussion board. Whats the point of having a thread about which new Helo's should the DF get ? The opinions in here have no effect .... But the point is it is just a discussion.

    And no, I haven't served in the NS. My father did (corvettes) and I have had a lifetime interest in things military and naval. I did consider joining as a Cadet when I left school, but financial reality won out in the end.

    So I'm not a serving NS member, but I hadn't realised thei meant I should stay shut up and not contribute to discussion on anything relating to the NS.

    One question, as non-politicians, does this also mean we cannot make any observations or comments on political matters also ?
    Last edited by dbpackers; 3rd November 2004 at 18:09.

  23. #73
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I think what the Good HPT was trying to say in a frustrated way was that this discussion has come up over and over again,and for the most part those who are loudest in their commentry are those who know nothing about the topic,apart from something they may have seen once on discovery channel or read in a book.
    They then try to tell people like Mr Murphy who has served aboard a naval Vessel,and is one of the few who is trained in aircraft handling aboard an Irish naval Vessel,that he doesnt know what he is talking about,that they know better.
    Would you blame him for getting a mite irritated?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  24. #74
    dbpackers
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    Please show me where I suggested he didn't know what he was saying ? As a civilian I have the greatest respect for serving members and their opinions, but am I disqualified from expressing an opinion or indeed from civilised comments ?

    Of course we know the liklihood of the Department ever having enough resources to provide what was being discused is non-existant.

  25. #75
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Dont assume he was directing the tirade at you specifically. He would be directing it at those individuals who want the small fleet of the NS to be equipped with missiles and attack helis. People who want Aegis Destroyers to do Fishery protection..


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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