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View Poll Results: What is the future for Naval Aircraft In Ireland?

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  • Continue Naval Air Ops with a new Air Corps heli

    19 15.45%
  • Continue Naval Air Ops with New Naval services operated Helis

    66 53.66%
  • Continue with Helideck only on certain ships

    17 13.82%
  • Give up on the whole idea..the CASA does the job fine!

    21 17.07%
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  1. #76
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    i apologise for my out burst and it was not directed at anyone individual and as my good friend Goldie says these subjects have been done unto death on so many occassions it is tiring..Iam prepared to discuss the topic and will share my expieriences with any one who shows a genuine interest but when it dives into the realms of fantasy I just get pissed off.

    Again my apologies to the people who felt the abuse was personnally directed at them!
    Time for another break I think......

  2. #77
    Brigadier General
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    I am afraid I do not know enough about NS ships as I should, I usually used to just ring up my late father when I had an enquiry to make, being a lazy b/stard at best. He had no offical connection with the NS, but would probally be called a ship-spotter.
    Considering that the gobsh**s who make up the present government probally would not know what a submarine is, providing for ASW is a bit pie in the sky.
    I understand, but do not really agree with Mister Murphy's position, I belive that everything should be available for discussion, no matter how silly it might first appear, but only if people realise that this is just a discussion board, and that all we do here is talk about, sometimes, whacky concepts which have little bearing on a country run, in the main part, by moral cowards, whos first thought in relation to defence is 'neutrality', a solution they quickly leap too, but do not have any knowlage of.
    It is possable in the future that the NS may well operate helicopters from ships, but for domestic duties I do not see the point of them, more Casas would probally be the solution to many future requirments, even including ASW work, should this ever become a requirement.
    In a peace keeping/enforceing role, however, I think, [flame if necessary] it might be possable to have operated by the NS a helicopter platform, probally converted from a container ship , or similar, to provide an independent base to support an operation, but the helicopters would be IAC or even that of another countries force.
    But even this might be considerd unrealistic until someone can be sure of a way of getting enough personall to operate even a modest and necessary increase in the number of PV's we currently own.
    Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, but it's my 2 cents worth.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
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  3. #78
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    A helimebopter boatie would have to be a multi-role vessel as far as Im concerned for it to be of real use to the DF as a whole, and the IAC would need proper transport helicopters first or at least a commitment to buying them.

    Judging HPTs accounts of just how hairy it was to land or HIFR on the Eithne I think its understandable that NS and IAC personnel dislike the idea.
    The need for a multi role vessel capable of being a secure heli base for troops overseas is worth discussing but only in a realistic context.
    The NS is first and foremost a domestic service and it will take a long time to convert it to a more PSO oriented force; therefore one of the biggest questions is can a dual purpose fleet be economically acquired and run and justified to to all those people that thought the soviets would stay away because we were nice people....or in some cases hoped they'd come.
    Manpower is also an issue, could the NS current establishment man a vessel of sufficient capacity for both men and machines to make a heli carrier worthwhile.
    One Solution might be a triservice vessel with Army and Air Corps personnell filling certain roles and freeing up naval personnel.
    However Im sure Murf will be able to point out quite a few problems with this.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  4. #79
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Sanity at last.......thank you CQ your obersvationa re some what educated in nature ...the first point is debatable...but at the time it was the selectio of the helo that restricted the role.

    The ship and crew were well capable of handling any helo in the class but the training of deck crews has waned i fear never to return.
    Time for another break I think......

  5. #80
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I remember reading at the time that the Minimum Dimensions of vessel required to operate a heli in rough seas was calculated at 75m on the Waterlineand a displacement of 1600tonne. Eithne is something like 81m overall and 1800tonnes(apologies for any inaccuricies,no details to hand). The only reason she got that big was by accident. The original design was an oversized P20 with single funnell,but the people at verolme realised after wind tunnel and tank testing that this would be unsuccessful. It was a flawed concept that begun as a P20 with a helicopter,and ended with a ship that should be something else.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  6. #81
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    ....actually it is 80.8 metres and 1910 tonnes...beam is 12 metres...draught is 14.1 metres speed is 20.0 kts..and range is 7000kts at 15kts ...according to janes...but they have been known to be wrong in the past!
    Time for another break I think......

  7. #82
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Military.ie agrees with you...as I said I didnt have any figures to hand.
    Displacement (tonnes)
    1760t standard, 1910t full load

    Dimensions: feet (metres) 265x39.4x14.1ft (80.8x12x4.3m).

    One wonders why they decided to go for such a narrow beam. The P50 class are much Broader. You would think that a greater beam would improve handling,considering the ships height above the waterline,combined with the need to operate helis.

    More photos of Eithne In dry dock HERE. She was pulled out incomplete as soon as all work under the waterline was done to free up the dry dock. She has already been in refit for 6 weeks longer than expected. No Main gun,No New boats fitted,and only one new Haley davit fitted. Props are nice and shiney though,and she got a proper coat of paint beneath the waterline,though it is estimated that the layers of paint on her surfaces(20 years worth) add almost a Hundred tonnes to her displacement


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  8. #83
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    SAR. Icing on the cake, or final nail in the coffin...

    Source: http://www.military.ie/whatsnew/air_...sentation.html

    News - International Award for 301 Squadron
    On September 30th last, in the Aero Club of Spain HQ, Madrid, a Diploma d'Honneur was awarded to 301 Sqn of No 3 Operations Wing, in recognition of over 40 years of Search and Rescue service to the Irish State. The Federation Aeronautique Internation (FAI) presented the award, which is the co-coordinating body for all Aero Clubs in Europe.

    The Air Corps ceased to carry out SAR duties as of October 11th 2004. The award was a fitting tribute marking the end of over 40 years of service by the Sqn.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  9. #84
    suggs
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    Question

    At the risk of upsetting the Forum support of the IAC…

    I reckon the problem with the IAC in general is that it isn’t really an Air force as such. It seems to be a place to put all of Ireland’s government air resources and deploy them (one assumes) with economic and operational efficiency.

    The economic argument does not stand scrutiny. From a military point of view having a third service (and therefore a third administration) does not make sense with such a small defence force. Amalgamating all three services wouldn’t really make any savings as two of them (Land and Sea) do two completely different tasks. The ‘miltary’ part of the IAC generally works in support of the other two services

    The most operationally and economic way to run the defence forces (assuming there is no massive spend on new combat aircraft) would be to have two separate land and sea services with directly controlled air wings. With a common training/support system for those airwings and and other government agencies that have air assets. Below is the complete aircraft inventory below of the IAC (From their website so I assume it’s accurate) which I have made comment at the end (IN BRACKETS) as to who should ‘own’ these aircraft if the IAC was to disband


    BEECHCRAFT SUPER KING AIR 200
    Originally used for Maritime Patrolling, the King Air is now used mainly for training. It is also tasked with Air Ambulance, VIP, Ministerial Air Transport Service and Military transportation.
    The King Air is used for multi-engine pilot conversion training, and in recent years, it has been used for advanced pilot training on the pilots Wings Course. (COMMON TRAINING AND SUPPORT, NON MILITARY TRANSPORT AGENCY)

    CASA CN235 100MP
    CASA 250 originally came into service in 1992. This aircraft was replaced by C 252 and C 253 in December 1994. Since their introduction to service they have flown over 12,000 hours and have recorded over 50,000 sightings.
    (NAVAL SERVICE)

    CESSNA FR.172
    Role: Four Seat general purpose aircraft
    The Cessna Reims Rocket is used primarily for cash, explosive and prisoner escorts
    Another role is parachute training and operations. Government agencies utilise this versatile aircraft for monitoring of forestry, fishery and wildlife. The high wing and low loiter speeds make it ideal for observation missions. The aircraft has also been used for drogue towing in ground-to-air live firing training.
    (ARMY)

    AEROSPATIALE SA.365F DAUPHIN II
    Role: Ten (10) seat general purpose utility helicopter.
    There are two variants in service with the Air Corps (Search And Rescue and Naval). All can be used for Search and Rescue, but only the Naval Variants are equipped for deck landings on the Naval Service vessel LE Eithne. The Dauphin is also used for VIP, Aid To Civil Power and air ambulance missions. (NAVAL SERVICE)

    SIAI-MARCHETTI SF.260WE WARRIOR

    The SF 260 came into service in 1977. The Air Corps has a total of 7 in service. It is used primarily for pilot training (elementary and basic) and has secondary roles in light attack, photographic reconnaissance, ceremonial fly pasts and aerobatic displays (ARMY)

    ALOUETTE III
    Primary Roles: General Utility, Search And Rescue, Air Ambulance and Pilot Training.
    Since 1963, the Alouette III has been the backbone of the Air Corps Helicopter Fleet. They have been employed on a wide variety of mission types, including, Search and Rescue (Search And Rescue.), Air Ambulance, Security and many more. (ARMY/ AIR AMBULANCE )

    EUROCOPTER AS 355N SQUIRREL 2
    Six seat light general purpose helicopter. The Squirrel is used by An Garda Síochána (Irish National Police Force) for general security operations.
    (POLICE)
    AEROSPATIALE GAZELLE
    Role: Five Seat Light Helicopter. It is used in the Air Corps for Pilot Training, general purpose and VIP operations. The Gazelles entered service in 1979. (COMMON TRAINING AND SUPPORT)

    GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE G.1159C GULFSTREAM IV
    Role: MATS (Ministerial Air Transport). – (DON’T THINK THIS IS IN SERVICE ANY MORE???)

    BRITTEN NORMAN BN2T-4S DEFENDER 4000
    Twin-Turboprop multi-role surveillance and patrol aircraft in service with An Garda Síochána (Irish National Police) (POLICE)

    BOMBARDIER AEROSPACE (LEARJET) 45
    The Bombardier Learjet 45, 102 squadron, Ministerial Air Transport, has one of the toughest jobs in the country, and that is of Ambassador for Ireland, a job that this sleek aircraft does in style. – (AIR CORPS – 1! NON MILITARY TRANSPORT SERVICE)

    PILATUS PC-9M ADVANCED TURBO TRAINER
    Training/ Light attack – (COMMON TRAINING AND SUPPORT AGENCY)

    ...Tin Hat on, Hides under table ready for the onslaught

  10. #85
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Heresy!
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  11. #86
    suggs
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    Sorry FM But i'm just presenting the argument for Beelzebub :wink: I dare say there will be a few reply's much worse than yours.

  12. #87
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    This;

    The economic argument does not stand scrutiny. From a military point of view having a third service (and therefore a third administration) does not make sense with such a small defence force.

    is at almost complete odds with this;

    The most operationally and economic way to run the defence forces (assuming there is no massive spend on new combat aircraft) would be to have two separate land and sea services with directly controlled air wings

    Are you really suggesting that it would make more economic sense to break up the AC into two separate services, with separate training. logistics, chains of command? In effect all the AC is at present is a "common training/support system", breaking it up makes about as much sense as my trying for the Cork Senior Hurling team.

    Its very simple, the NS will not now or ever get a separate air wing, any such wing would be so small as to be a waste of time. Theres no point if they have feck all aircraft anyway. The CN.235s are assets used in co-ordination with the NS, but basing them away from any other significant AC presence would be a waste of time. Theres also the problem that they are also used for tasks other than Fisheries Protection.

  13. #88
    Muff Diver
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    IF you want Helos on ships then the only way to do it effectively is to have a fleet Air arm.
    Helo's were not much use for Fisheries so what do you want them for. With VMS and ARPA Radar combined they are completly obsolete for fisheries.
    If money became available I would hate to see it spent on more Casa's the replacement date for Emer keeps pushing out further and further.
    No Beast so fell that knows no pity,
    No Beast am I, For I know no pity...

  14. #89
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    When is her retirment due?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  15. #90
    Ex-bagger Big Al's Avatar
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    Type and age of Naval Service vessels

    Vessel Type Age Est. Remaining Life *
    LE Emer Offshore Patrol Vessel 26 years 4 years
    LE Aoife Offshore Patrol Vessel 25 years 5 years
    LE Aisling Offshore Patrol Vessel 24 years 6 years
    LE Eithne Helicopter Patrol Vessel 20 years 10 years
    LE Ciara Coastal Patrol Vessel 20 years 10 years
    LE Orla Coastal Patrol Vessel 19 years 11 years
    LE Róisín Offshore Patrol Vessel 4 years 26 years
    LE Niamh Offshore Patrol Vessel 3 years 27 years

    * Based on a notional life of 30 years.
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate...ode=1754#N1754
    You're even dumber than I tell people

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  16. #91
    Private 3*
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    Vice Admiral would need to get on the phone to the EU AND quick!!!!!

    Helicopters no use for Fishery protection?

    Thats strange because the EU has just funded 65% of 35 million Euros to Portugal for 2 EH-IOI helicopters!!!!

    The new Spanish, Italian and Canadian OPVs will all be equipped for helicopter ops. :tri:
    Sarsfield

  17. #92
    Muff Diver
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    Does portugal have a fully staffed FMC monitoring VMS plots and correlating them with data from Casa patrols?
    I can only speak to the experience of the NS as related to me, Helo's were not considered useful for Fisheries and also, since when was EU money spent wisely?
    No Beast so fell that knows no pity,
    No Beast am I, For I know no pity...

  18. #93
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    because the EU has just funded 65% of 35 million Euros to Portugal for 2 EH-IOI helicopters!!!!
    Sorry Sarsfield, but do you have a reference for this?

  19. #94
    mack
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMolloy
    I think past experience would rule out the LUH being made available to the NS. I don't see the point in a return to flight ops from Eithne, the usefulness of having one heli on one vessel has to be questioned.

    Perhaps it would be better if future vessels had a flight deck & the ability to refuel other helis.
    I was under the impression that the two new babies to the NS were capaple of doing a refueling based along the same lines that the DAUPHIN II used to (up ontill jan 2000 at least) hover above the deck and hoist up the fueling rig. Also just to throw the cat into the middle of this. any truth that a RN sea king (I know greater than 5 tonnes) flew UP from sea level and landed on board during a joint exercise..

    we need a ASR, Twin jolly green giants Able to refuel each other. or some naval version of the black hawk..

    Regards.

  20. #95
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I've not seen information to say that the P50 class are hifr cpmpatible....Dosen't make any sense anyway given as OPVs the would rarely come into contact with helos. Also given the problems historically of carrying JET A1 at sea on small vessels.


    Yes Eithne did one or two hifrs with both royal air force and Royal navy seakings as training missions in the event of a real requiremnat ever occurring . No a seaking never landed on the Eithne ...its too bloody big and dosen't have compatible lock down gear.. Next time your on the eithne just look how small the flight deck actually is...and now look at an S61... the only way to get a seaking onto a nvavl vessel is to crash in to it!
    Time for another break I think......

  21. #96
    Old Redeye
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    The solution lies in the new vessel postulated for the NS, a multi-purpose RO-RO/patrol ship with helicopter facilities such as the Danish ABSALON class recently examined by a NS team. And like the Danes, who will operate their new multi-purpose Merlins from the ABSALONs, helo's for the new NS ship should be multi-purpose maritime patrol/SAR/utility/assault. These could be two additional marinised AB-139's, but more appropriately, the IAC should follow-up the 139 purchase with at least four NH-90's for international deployments and in keeping with the multi-purpose vein, up to two of these could operate from the new NS multi-purpose ship, though only one would be required for the maritime patrol role. They would require an EO/FLIR system - which they would anyway to adequately support international deployments - and optionally a radar with a maritime mode. You may think this is all bit far-fetched, but do not be shocked if this is how modernization flows over the next five years. The new ship will be the next big ticket item, followed by an airlifter = C-130J-30??

    Cheers

  22. #97
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Just wondering,where did you hear that an Irish NS team examined the absalon class? Its quite important that you tell me this...


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  23. #98
    Old Redeye
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    I read it a couple months ago, but honestly can't remember where. I read a lot of sources every day for my work. I also saw the visit referenced at least once by someone on the NS site here on IMO. Pretty useless I know, but you can always try the Danish MOD press office and the Danish Navy, they were quite helpful when I was researching for an article on the Danish military. Just scroll through their website.

  24. #99
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Ahem....oookay.

    try here


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  25. #100
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I wonder are you a mate of sarsfields........
    Time for another break I think......

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