The Future of the Army Reserve - Discuss

[DeV]

Also back in the day they weren't ignored for 6 to 8 months after applying. In my day they had you training during the security clearance period. Even in the 2000s there was a limited training facility that could be done pre-security clearance and a good recruiting team would be keeping tabs on people through that process. That being said I still would need to start the process on about 3 times as many people as I wanted to get through the door.

The Planning for recruitment TI?

I can’t remember the exact phrasing in the TI but it was intended to bridge the gap while waiting for s/clearance (even allows some weapons familiarisation). Everyone had forgotten about it (my old sub-Unit had used it from the start) until it came up at a conference.

But, open to correction, but it appears that currently it isn’t being done until after s/clearance has been completed.

the current debacle over who said what about ships being tied up is the ultimate PR nightmare because the press got hold of something, probably intended to get to them but it has done irreparable damage to the image of the DF, The FOCNS actions were correct.....but he's left himself open to the press via the debacle the government caused....

And he's the FOCNS.... not some two star back from camp who didn't like the pillows....but decided the Daily Slag needed to know.

The people to blame there are DoD

When I saw what was happening at the 2005 re org I knew it was doomed....The FCA higher ups sold out for 4 x Lt Colonels and bought into a graded RDF hook line and sinker to be hoisted by their own petard.

2. Also, as I'm sure Reservists know, but Regulars sometimes need reminding, it's better to lead than drive. I remember a new RSM being posted to my unit - it was his first real interaction with the TA. His first few weeks, he obviously wanted to make an impression, and parade nights became about how much beasting he could give everyone. After about six weeks, attendance had dropped from 60 odd to 20 odd on parade night. Eventually, one of the officers (very old and bold) who had three children and a son in Law serving with the unit, invited the RSM out for a drink and gently pointed out the difference between how to treat a squad of 18-19 year old privates who had to be there every morning regardless, and a squad of 25-35 year olds who had a lot of life experience, and could decide to stay at home and watch The Rockford Files rather than spending hours ironing kit and going out in the cold just to be shouted at.I

I'm not saying discipline isn't important, just that people who join up are enthusiastic. There must be some way to keep the enthusiasm up.

But at that stage the damage is done and it’s too late

In this period, is there no way to even just do fitness training on a regular basis with the wannabe recruits - with a bit of imagination, it wouldn't have to be done anywhere security clearance is required. Cross-country running, hikes, orienteering, local park circuit's (I know a few parks and seafront in North County Dublin have exercise machines along then, for example , and few laps of Ardgillan would stretch anybody!).

It's a way of keeping interest up, having recruits at a standard before formal training starts, and give the organisation a chance to start assessing everyone before accepting them.

Lack of PTLs and numbers
There is a TI there that can be used

Assuming we were to pay a quarter days pay for a training night, I calculate that I'd still only see 7 euro (or less) after tax. It would work out to a max of maybe the equivalent of 11-12 training days if you attended everything. The RDF isn't using it's full allocation of days so ironically, the funding is probably there already. It's less the amount of remuneration and the usefulness of it more just the feeling you are getting something small back. Younger members and recruits are far less likely to be on the top rate of tax so would benefit more.

I also think the grat would be useful especially if the requirements for receipt were kept exceptionally tight with no strokes pulled. Maybe twenty training days (weekends and FTT training only). Passing of ITs also a requirement. It would mean only those properly committed to the unit receive and it would encourage others to do the same.

Seems relatively inexpensive and effective to me...

D Res is actively pushing for all the mandays to be used and if they he will look for more.

At least 1 formation used all their mandays last year and received additional ones. I know of individuals who has done far in excess of 7 mandays (as in many multiples of 7).

It is only unit policies, people not wanting to do paperwork and shredders that are preventing it. Although an updated AFC 297 is required.

[batterysgt]

What Dev says about mandays is true. I have seen a document, by accident, which had all RDF mandays accounted for 2018, including RDFRA days. Some people who can give the time exceed 42 and it was not just a hand full. Even rdfra people I know were up to 21 days.
DRES has said to use them up.

[trellheim]

Some things are done by men on the ground, a lot is done in project work thats not FTT but needs doing all the same, I'd be way over 42 . Problem for most people is its like this .

Also remember some of what we do is volunteer service, not all weekends are paid but with the removal of the Grat that pendulum swings its own way

[Auldsod]

Also just want to clarify that I don't think that the RDF should be a big earner for joiners. I think we can all agree that none of us are greatly financially benefiting from the organisation and nor do we want to. We would mostly all stay involved even if the financial conditions became worse.

I'm purely thinking from the perspective of an 18 year old or someone in their mid twenties with a useful skill. Maybe they will eventually get to a point where they are proud of and are willing to put in a LOT of their own time unpaid into the organisation but they need to be brought up to that point first.

We need to think about this issue from the mind set of a new joiner and not from that of an NCO or officer already heavily invested. If the DoD and DF aren't pragmatic in how the approach increasing the size of the reserve, it will continue to whither.

Increasing available training days and decreasing the time taken for security clearance coupled with more regular recruitment is only part of the solution (and welcome) but there need to be other incentives or we are just flogging a dead horse.

[DeV]

Some things are done by men on the ground, a lot is done in project work thats not FTT but needs doing all the same, I'd be way over 42 . Problem for most people is its like this .

Also remember some of what we do is volunteer service, not all weekends are paid but with the removal of the Grat that pendulum swings its own way

Not forgetting that there are no KPIs any more to be measured against so it is really just:
48 hours unpaid (or which 24 hrs can be counted if you do 7 days continuous FTT)
TOETs & PWT (for operational effectiveness)
Medical / AF14C (for operational effectiveness)
ITs (for operational effectiveness)

Also just want to clarify that I don't think that the RDF should be a big earner for joiners. I think we can all agree that none of us are greatly financially benefiting from the organisation and nor do we want to. We would mostly all stay involved even if the financial conditions became worse.

I'm purely thinking from the perspective of an 18 year old or someone in their mid twenties with a useful skill. Maybe they will eventually get to a point where they are proud of and are willing to put in a LOT of their own time unpaid into the organisation but they need to be brought up to that point first.

We need to think about this issue from the mind set of a new joiner and not from that of an NCO or officer already heavily invested. If the DoD and DF aren't pragmatic in how the approach increasing the size of the reserve, it will continue to whither.

Increasing available training days and decreasing the time taken for security clearance coupled with more regular recruitment is only part of the solution (and welcome) but there need to be other incentives or we are just flogging a dead horse.

You don’t generally don’t even cover your expenses with RDF pay but it helps towards them so it isn’t as costly to be a member

Twice annual recruitment is even difficult due to lack of JNCOs

[Audax]

I read in the august newsletter Connect that a CS4 review is underway. Presumably this will include the RDF? Anyone care to give me an educated guess as to how long a CS4 review might take, and how long before it might translate to establishment changes?

[batterysgt]

https://www.facebook.com/64482377562...7220662717351/
What are they doing for our membership?? NSR seem to be able to promote away!

[Auldsod]

https://www.facebook.com/64482377562...7220662717351/
What are they doing for our membership?? NSR seem to be able to promote away!

Well deserved and long awaited promotions I would say.

[DeV]

https://www.facebook.com/64482377562...7220662717351/
What are they doing for our membership?? NSR seem to be able to promote away!

Good few sgt’s promotions in DFTC and 1 Bde

If units didn’t insist on holding onto people on paper only instead of posting them non-effective and discharge after 2 years non-effective - there would not far off a promotion for everyone in the RDF

Heaven forbid failing that they could encourage the non attendees (who should have been posted non-effective and haven’t been) to start engaging with the RDF Again. Wonder how many would be 80+ years old and who’s only uniform was No1s

[batterysgt]

Anyone know how the RDF recruitment campaign is going. Are the applicant numbers up or down. RLOs are been used so I hope that keeps more interested and engaged

[batterysgt]

I have copied this from another topic on the forum, so credit to
them but I think its relative here.

With the all the extra focus and resources that has gone into recruitment into the DF over the last 3 years it is not working. It continues to go down.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/...&s=Naval#g77.q

KildareStreet.com
Written answers
Thursday, 7 November 2019

Department of Defence
Defence Forces Strength

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
36. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the extent to which the numbers in the Defence Forces have fluctuated in the past three years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45991/19]
Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
37. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the degree to which membership of the Air Corps has fluctuated in the past three years to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45992/19]
Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
38. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the degree to which membership of the Naval Service has fluctuated in the past three years to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45993/19]
Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I propose to take Questions Nos. 36 to 38, inclusive, together.
The table below illustrates the extent to which the numbers in the Defence Forces have fluctuated in the past three years:
Year Army Air Corps Naval Service Total PDF Strength (WTE) Army Reserve Naval Reserve Total AR and NSR Strength (Effective)
2017 7,386 734 1,053 9,173 1,732 124 1,856
2018 7,243 725 989 8,957 1,666 133 1,799
2019* 6,983 720 951 8,654 1,548 148 1,696
*as at 30th September 2019, the latest date for which such data is available.
Recruitment and inductions will continue throughout 2019 to ensure the Defence Forces retain the capacity to operate effectively across all roles.

[Fantasia]

It is only dawning on the DoD since the PSPC report came out that we cannot recruit our way out of this crisis.

The organisation is caught in a spiral that will be all but impossible to resolve without a major geopolitical stimulus.

The figures do not represent the true realities either. There are almost 250 people on trainee technician courses. There are another 500+ that are on other courses on any given day. There are 650+ overseas with the same amount just back and another same amount preparing to travel.

The realities on the ground are soul destroying for those few that are left. Workshops with 1 Pte on the floor, Coys with 2 or 3 people available for a parade which they cannot hold due to lack of people to take them, I could go on and on

[trellheim]

It is only dawning on the DoD since the PSPC report came out that we cannot recruit our way out of this crisis.

they have known this for a very long time. A stubborn fixation (verging on the completely weird and over the top refusal to face reality ) that core pay cannot be touched is at the back of all this .

In addition to this, Tech pay 1-6 is essentially at the high end not worth it as a retention initiative, to retain T6 in IT roles or otherwise as the multinationals just laugh and add an extra few grand its monopoly money for facebook etc essentially in the long run . With the loss of decent living accomodation, and the brain drain making it fall harder on the people left you cant even do family friendly .

Its worse than I have ever seen it on RDF and PDF retention

[DeV]

Anyone know how the RDF recruitment campaign is going. Are the applicant numbers up or down. RLOs are been used so I hope that keeps more interested and engaged

Numbers applying are extremely positive on a total for the year basis compared to 2018

[apod]

It is only dawning on the DoD since the PSPC report came out that we cannot recruit our way out of this crisis.

The organisation is caught in a spiral that will be all but impossible to resolve without a major geopolitical stimulus.

The figures do not represent the true realities either. There are almost 250 people on trainee technician courses. There are another 500+ that are on other courses on any given day. There are 650+ overseas with the same amount just back and another same amount preparing to travel.

The realities on the ground are soul destroying for those few that are left. Workshops with 1 Pte on the floor, Coys with 2 or 3 people available for a parade which they cannot hold due to lack of people to take them, I could go on and on

Of course it doesn't help when those on high still keep trying to do things as if it's business as usual and keep planning and organising and saying yes to tasks as if we still had the numbers we had 10-15 years ago.
At least FOCNS had the balls to "Cut the cloth according to the measure",but look where that got him. This is emperors new clothes s**t at this stage with no one wanting to tell the emperor he is naked.
Our can do attitude is being abused and the good will is running out.

[batterysgt]

Numbers applying are extremely positive on a total for the year basis compared to 2018

Good to hear that but the numbers getting in continue to go down. Or could it be die to retirements and non effective being moved on? Hard to tell.

[batterysgt]

Or worse, would the cost of AR recruitment v result v output from AR v number with complete OR v not complete OR, my guess is those figures would be very poor and bring the viability of the RDF into question.

[DeV]

Good to hear that but the numbers getting in continue to go down. Or could it be die to retirements and non effective being moved on? Hard to tell.

Or worse, would the cost of AR recruitment v result v output from AR v number with complete OR v not complete OR, my guess is those figures would be very poor and bring the viability of the RDF into question.

As far as I’ve heard the RDF is suffering similar percentage wastage during the process as the PDF.... there are plans afoot to help



But look at it this way..... 2 formations are able to get RDF from the March/April 2019 competition attested within 2 months and at least 1 of them has them as 3* within 12-18 months of applying to join (obviously subject to individual availability).

In the other 2, application to attestation can be 12+ months

[batterysgt]

I know dftc is doing very well, in fact best in class you might say. So why cant the other two do the same.

[batterysgt]

DFTC, I think, has the solution to the problem it would appear, best by far for last two years getting people in and processed. They work very hard to get those results. And all in their own time.

[trellheim]

Or worse, would the cost of AR recruitment v result v output from AR v number with complete OR v not complete OR,

we cost fk-all

2018 Vote 35 and 36 - the defence votes total 1007 million Euro. Reserve pay =2.5 million we cost about a quarter of a percent of the budget and we cant even use all that

[Fantasia]

we cost fk-all

2018 Vote 35 and 36 - the defence votes total 1007 million Euro. Reserve pay =2.5 million we cost about a quarter of a percent of the budget and we cant even use all that

€2.5m plus ammo, food, clothing, cadre, fuel etc.

Still **** all but there are more costs than just pay

[Fantasia]

By way of context, I know of one subhead that will have an underspend of circa €4m this year as they do not have the personnel to manage the projects that were planned.

That is only one subhead

[batterysgt]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/104090...ops-quit-year/

[Fantasia]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/104090...ops-quit-year/

Recruitment in the British Army has been shown to be directly related to involvement in wars. The more wars, the better the recruitment.

Troops hate the barrack life.