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The Future of the Army Reserve - Discuss

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  • One point : RDF never signed up to CPA. PDF did so they MUST comply with relocation etc.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
      What does the mythical RDFRA document conclude is needed ?

      ( My version anyway, no idea what the rest of you are reading. )

      1. Independent report to sanity-check the proposal
      2. Employment protection legislation
      3. Recruitment to establishment to allow proper fulfilment of assigned tasks.

      OK. So that's the document.
      Are we looking at the same document?

      What I see is discussion of the cost effectiveness of replacing PDF with RDF and how to make that work through employment protection, recruitment and improved industrial relations. Also the addition of an apprenticeship scheme and amalgamation of the 3 Rep Assocs into 1.

      My arguments against are still valid.
      Last edited by Docman; 25 November 2012, 23:41.

      Comment


      • Do people think they will come after NSR patrol allowance when at sea with the fleet.

        Comment


        • DM : Look at the conclusions, as I said. I get detailed reports all the time. A lot of the time all I read are the conclusions; that is how these things work. Specialists write report and people use their conclusions. The report does indeed go into analysis of deploying RDF instead of PDF but makes no conclusions except the ones I've mentioned above. Again I may be reading a different one. Am I ?


          Popeye: Doesn't the Patrol allowance follow the post not the individual sailor ?

          The implication I've always hoped is " you can't have two privates on the beat being paid different basic pay otherwise serious problems "
          "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

          "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

          Comment


          • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
            DM : Look at the conclusions, as I said. I get detailed reports all the time. A lot of the time all I read are the conclusions; that is how these things work. Specialists write report and people use their conclusions. The report does indeed go into analysis of deploying RDF instead of PDF but makes no conclusions except the ones I've mentioned above. Again I may be reading a different one.
            There are several pages given over the cost comparisons & effectiveness of replacing PDF with RDF. The conclusions don't follow the document (something I had put down to the document not being completed). I have read the document several times - you need to go beyond the conclusions (which I said I believe are incomplete). There are several parts that don't make it into the conclusion and conclusions which are not mentioned in the document.

            Unfortunately if the document had made it as far as a Dáil Committee (fortunately it understand it won't), I doubt any politician would have made it to reading the conclusions - they would have been blinded by the € signs.

            Comment


            • And I have read it; The word "replace" occurs 3 times. Once is relevant ( the other two are for employment legislation ) where they discuss the average saving for one company.

              Nowhere does it mention downsizing of PDF. Again, though none of that made it into the conclusions.
              "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

              "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by popeye View Post
                Do people think they will come after NSR patrol allowance when at sea with the fleet.
                Aren't they going after PDA anyway under the review of expenses, and want to tie it into core pay?


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                Comment


                • I have read this thing several times and I just cannot get away from the aspect of replacing PDF with RDF. despite everything that has been said, it is the biggest point coming out of the document....and I'm RDF. The fact that just about every PDF man who sees the document gets the same idea from it as me invalidates every argument that it is not there. There would not be this furore if it wasn't. It is the forst thing I saw when I read it.

                  And as for all the ideas in it - It to me is pure utopia - something that will never happen. It is like saying that Politician won't need to be corrupt or wars will never be fought again if we follow certain criteria

                  As or saying
                  "Ah sure, that's not the way we do things around here" on a national scale.
                  I guess it is. But that is the way it is and that is reality.

                  I don't believe the document is based on reality. It may be the way we do it here, but it is the way we do it here. Irish politicians would implement all the cost saving measures and ignore to cost increasing ones to the detriment of the whole force. And that is the way they did it in the UK up to 2007 - so it is not just the way we do it here.

                  Comment


                  • Integration was about replacing PDF with RDF.

                    The idea being that the RDF would bring the PDF unit establishment up to full establishment as they were reorg'ed to be under strength (and that was in 1998)!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SwiftandSure
                      But look it, if we're happy to let the RDF go down the pan in 3 years, as is the inevitable outcome that the VFM has designed; then the PDF need to standby for pain after that.
                      Where the RDF goes in the next 3 years is up to us. We are the architects of our own misfortunes and were lucky to survive the VFM. I am optimistic about the future as the VFM delivered the badly needed major change required. Now it up to us to deliver.

                      If we go down the pan, then we did it ourselves.
                      Last edited by Docman; 26 November 2012, 10:36.

                      Comment


                      • And I disagree with you on every level. It will succeed assuming we have the will and determination to make it succeed. We have shown more that once that we are incapable of operating effectively even within limited parameters. This is our last chance to fix the sins of the past. Time to take responsibility for our own actions. We fail, it is our own fault.

                        Comment


                        • It will succeed or fail based on the changes that are made, what reservists are asked to give, the resources provided (including wet gear for ATCA ops).

                          Committed reservists can only do so much.

                          Comment


                          • Aren't they going after PDA anyway under the review of expenses, and want to tie it into core pay?
                            Its debateable wheter PDA should have been paid to reservist at all given that Army Reservists couldn't claim duty allowances.

                            Can't see how they are going to encorporate PDA in to core pay given its only payable while at sea as opposed to while aboard ship.

                            Committed reservists can only do so much
                            If the committed reservist had parity in training and standing in the DF they could acheive as much as they need to to upskill them to an effective reserve, but when they are highlighted as they have been in the VFM report, its a very hard swim upstream when your own command structure dosen't think the majority are viable.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • All this talk of DF taking PDF jobs is a bit off the wall.

                              No one knows what is going to happen next.

                              Yes PDF cuts were bad but who knows if they are all done?
                              Is the RDF to be used to plug the under strength numbers of the PDF?
                              If that did happen would that be an act of taking or securing PDF jobs?

                              According to the Defence.ie web site the basic coy structure has a certain ratio of Ptes to NCOs.
                              So if a coy is under strength surely it is a lack of Ptes?
                              But if there is a lack of ptes then surely you shouldn't have extra NCOs that would be out side the Pte/NCO ratio?

                              So then, since the strength of the PDF is not to be increased and there is to be little if any recruitment, RDF will have to be doing those vacant PDF jobs if for no other reason than to justify the posts of some Officers.

                              I know that this is a very simplistic way at looking at it but it seems to be the way that the civvies are looking at it. And those civvies are the consultants, public servants and TDs that are shaping the decisions about the DF.

                              As for allowances. I was listening to a report over the weekend. It looks af if the aim is to get all allowances either justifies as part of basic pay or removed.
                              If a sailor is expected to do 40 hours over a certainm period at sea then his pay shouold reflect that.
                              If he does less in one period then he should do more in the next and vice versa as long as the annual total ends up the same. I am sure that they will come after the Army allowances next. You are expected to do certain things in you job. You get paid to do them.

                              The whole idea behind this is to stop people, some in very well paid jobs, playing the poor mouth.
                              For example,
                              Look at me a poor public sector worker. I am on 26k pa.
                              I am not mentioning the 52k of allowances that I got for doing various things like goint to Brussels for meetings etc as that was extra to my normal job and I deserve it.
                              But how am I expected to survive on 26k?

                              I paraphrase the example that they actually gave.
                              The interview was careful to point out that while some are genuinely in difficulty there are also some milking the system. Something that is true in every employment not just pubic sector.

                              Comment


                              • The point of the RDF since the reorg of the PDF is to bring the PDF units up to establishment for contingency ops.

                                The PDF has been reduced from 11,500 to 9,500, yes the number of units has been reduced.

                                This wouldn't be as much of an issue it stated Government/DOD/DF policy was implemented when it should have been initially in 1998 (and subsequently in 2005)

                                Comment

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