Originally posted by Rhodes
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The Future of the Army Reserve - Discuss
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Originally posted by Rhodes View PostThe FLR is a paper force of ex-PDF and doesnt train or cost anything to keep.
What time wasters?
Very very few PDF have ever been in the FCA/RDF.
The CD do very little as it is so what can the RDF do for them.
- That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.
- Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
- I do not believe that I can I can take your statement on the number of RDF/FCA now in the PDF as fact. Many of the people I've known in the reserve over the years are now PDF.
- The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostIn order:
- That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.
- Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
- I do not believe that I can I can take your statement on the number of RDF/FCA now in the PDF as fact. Many of the people I've known in the reserve over the years are now PDF.
- The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.I knew a simple soldier boy.....
Who grinned at life in empty joy,
Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
And whistled early with the lark.
In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
He put a bullet through his brain.
And no one spoke of him again.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
Sneak home and pray you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
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Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post**** no.
Being a member of the RDF doesn't make you good enough for the PDF. People should be getting places based on merit, not what volunteer organisation they're a part of.
I would never claim that getting into the RDF automatically makes you PDF-grade (God knows there were enough that I thought should have been kicked out, never mind being trusted with a loaded rifle), just that I think both organisations would benefit from this being one of the prerequisites.
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostBeing in the RDF is a good way to prove 'merit', though. A good number of the people I knew who went PDF were NCOs, instructed on the Pots, had orienteering, VW Trophy medals etc. It's an excellent levelling-field way to see what people from very different backgrounds and opportunities can make of themselves.
I would never claim that getting into the RDF automatically makes you PDF-grade (God knows there were enough that I thought should have been kicked out, never mind being trusted with a loaded rifle), just that I think both organisations would benefit from this being one of the prerequisites.
What about people who work certain hours and can't commit time to the RDF, or are in college and can't commit time to the RDF? It doesn't level the field at all.
Being in the RDF shouldn't ever be considered as being necessary for enlistment in the PDF.
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View Post- Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
Plenty of ex RDF members end up as barrack rats, as do lads who came in off civvie street.
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Originally posted by Hello Alaska View PostIt's not a good way to prove "merit" though, all it shows is that you spent time in a volunteer organisation that pretty much serves no purpose at all.
What about people who work certain hours and can't commit time to the RDF, or are in college and can't commit time to the RDF? It doesn't level the field at all.
People in college have the time to parade, do weekends and camps, at least in my experience. Your objection on people having jobs is valid. The need for employment legislation to make/encourage employers to release people for reservist training, is somewhere that we seriously lag other western nations.
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostThe RDF isn't just 'any' volunteer organisation, it's the primary reserve component of the Defence Forces. If it serves no purpose, as you say, then where does that leave the PDF? Surely the Guards can carry out most (all) PDF roles?
When a member of the Garda can operate a Mowag on a long range patrol in Chad or man an OP in Chad, let me know.
Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostPeople in college have the time to parade, do weekends and camps, at least in my experience. Your objection on people having jobs is valid. The need for employment legislation to make/encourage employers to release people for reservist training, is somewhere that we seriously lag other western nations.
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Originally posted by Hello Alaska View PostFrom my own experience, the two biggest bluffer's in my Recruit Platoon were ex RDF members. The lads who won Best Soldier and Runner Up Best Soldier came in off civvie street having never served in the RDF.
Plenty of ex RDF members end up as barrack rats, as do lads who came in off civvie street.
I can only tell you what I (and some others here, I think) have as our own experiences. It takes a whole lot of commitment to sacrifice the time and effort to be buggering off to Gormanston for a weekend to do menial work for a shoot (or whatever), for no money and no reward other than the love of the military life.
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Originally posted by Hello Alaska View PostWhat actual purpose does it serve then? Although I can't confirm last years numbers, in 2009 just under 2,500 members of the RDF qualified for Grat. That's less than one third it's establishment.... So how about instead of it not serving a purpose, we'll just say it's not fit for purpose?
When a member of the Garda can operate a Mowag on a long range patrol in Chad or man an OP in Chad, let me know.
What about when exam season rolls around, should they be expected to sacrifice exams for the RDF in order to make sure they can still go for a career in the PDF?
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostThat the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.
We dont need to waste tens of millions of euros from the defence budget every year training people who have left the army in stuff they already know.
Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.
Are you saying you are willing to take time of work to dress up in DPMs and clear snow for a few weeks?Last edited by Rhodes; 6 April 2011, 23:03.
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostThere's also too much of an over-reliance on shoving people with degrees onto Pot. Officer courses. This isn't how the regular army promote from the ranks, so why should we?
[*]The First and Second Line Reserves must be amalgamated. The First Line may not particularly like this (how often does it train now?) but there are surely ways to sweeten the pill.
[*]Recruitment to the PDF should only be through the RDF, which weeds out time-wasters (they cream off the top of RDF in any case).
[*]There should be a role for the RDF in Civil Defence, which would be to the benefit of both organisations.
[*]There should be flexible re-enlistment/re-commissioning - certainly, years served previously in the RDF should be added to the age limit if you try to re-join.[/LIST]
Sin iad.
Originally posted by Rhodes View PostThe FLR is a paper force of ex-PDF and doesnt train or cost anything to keep.
Very very few PDF have ever been in the FCA/RDF.Originally posted by Rhodes View PostIt is true, ask anyone in the PDF have they ever been in the FCA/RDF.
Only one person in my Company was in the FCA before joining the PDF.
In my recruit platoon out of the 28 of us who past out only 3 had been in the FCA.Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostIn order:
- That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.
- Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
- I do not believe that I can I can take your statement on the number of RDF/FCA now in the PDF as fact. Many of the people I've known in the reserve over the years are now PDF.
- The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.Originally posted by Hello Alaska View PostPlenty of ex RDF members end up as barrack rats, as do lads who came in off civvie street.
Originally posted by Hello Alaska View PostWhat actual purpose does it serve then? Although I can't confirm last years numbers, in 2009 just under 2,500 members of the RDF qualified for Grat. That's less than one third it's establishment.... So how about instead of it not serving a purpose, we'll just say it's not fit for purpose?
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Originally posted by Wicklaman View PostBeing in the RDF is a good way to prove 'merit', though. A good number of the people I knew who went PDF were NCOs, instructed on the Pots, had orienteering, VW Trophy medals etc. It's an excellent levelling-field way to see what people from very different backgrounds and opportunities can make of themselves.
I would never claim that getting into the RDF automatically makes you PDF-grade (God knows there were enough that I thought should have been kicked out, never mind being trusted with a loaded rifle), just that I think both organisations would benefit from this being one of the prerequisites.
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Originally posted by DeV View PostYour not wrong HA, but if the MA/DOD wanted to a useable & trained reserve, they have the power, having said that individuals and some in the organisation do not do themselves any favours!
Which is why in it's current guise, it just doesn't serve a viable purpose. Which is why an organisation in that state shouldn't be the sole conduit for the PDF to recruit from.
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Originally posted by Rhodes View PostBeing in the RDF means notting when it comes to PDF recruit training. All PDF recruits start from scratch.
I'm not advocating any change from the current, where Sgt. Byrne goes in and finds himself Recruit Byrne on day one. What I'm saying is that it be a prerequisite, just like having a clean record. It would help both the PDF (savings) and the RDF (numbers), in terms of recruitment.
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