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  1. #1251
    Cut backs luchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bam Bam View Post
    Maybe the VFM and white paper are to reccommend an extreme deflation in numbers.
    maybe, so why inflate the senior ranks?

    So much so that there is no need to recruit, when they have to clean house first.
    There has been many a coment here about the deadwood being at the top and the need for new blood and a "new order".
    Promoting and not recruiting is the direct opposite of doing that.
    Without supplies no army is brave.

    —Frederick the Great,

    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

  2. #1252
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    maybe, so why inflate the senior ranks?


    There has been many a coment here about the deadwood being at the top and the need for new blood and a "new order".
    The base problem, though, is senior ranks going to pot. Some few do have the natural inclination and outside interests to keep themselves fit and active, but for those who don't... There's also too much of an over-reliance on shoving people with degrees onto Pot. Officer courses. This isn't how the regular army promote from the ranks, so why should we?

    As for my own tuppenceworth:

    • The First and Second Line Reserves must be amalgamated. The First Line may not particularly like this (how often does it train now?) but there are surely ways to sweeten the pill.
    • Recruitment to the PDF should only be through the RDF, which weeds out time-wasters (they cream off the top of RDF in any case).
    • There should be a role for the RDF in Civil Defence, which would be to the benefit of both organisations.
    • There should be flexible re-enlistment/re-commissioning - certainly, years served previously in the RDF should be added to the age limit if you try to re-join.


    Sin iad.

  3. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    The First and Second Line Reserves must be amalgamated. The First Line may not particularly like this (how often does it train now?) but there are surely ways to sweeten the pill.
    The FLR is a paper force of ex-PDF and doesnt train or cost anything to keep.

    Recruitment to the PDF should only be through the RDF, which weeds out time-wasters (they cream off the top of RDF in any case).
    What time wasters?
    Very very few PDF have ever been in the FCA/RDF.

    There should be a role for the RDF in Civil Defence, which would be to the benefit of both organisations.
    The CD do very little as it is so what can the RDF do for them.

  4. #1254
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The FLR is a paper force of ex-PDF and doesnt train or cost anything to keep.



    What time wasters?
    Very very few PDF have ever been in the FCA/RDF.



    The CD do very little as it is so what can the RDF do for them.


    You are joking of course?
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  5. #1255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    You are joking of course?
    Its a fact.

  6. #1256
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Its a fact.
    backed up by what evidence? It's not a fact. It's just you saying it. Doesn't make it true.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  7. #1257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buck View Post
    backed up by what evidence? It's not a fact. It's just you saying it. Doesn't make it true.
    It is true, ask anyone in the PDF have they ever been in the FCA/RDF.
    Only one person in my Company was in the FCA before joining the PDF.
    In my recruit platoon out of the 28 of us who past out only 3 had been in the FCA.

  8. #1258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    [*]Recruitment to the PDF should only be through the RDF, which weeds out time-wasters (they cream off the top of RDF in any case).
    **** no.

    Being a member of the RDF doesn't make you good enough for the PDF. People should be getting places based on merit, not what volunteer organisation they're a part of.

  9. #1259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Its a fact.
    Just because you say something, it's not a fact.

    When you're going off your own experiences, people tend to say "In my experience" not "It's a fact."

  10. #1260
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It is true, ask anyone in the PDF have they ever been in the FCA/RDF.
    Only one person in my Company was in the FCA before joining the PDF.
    In my recruit platoon out of the 28 of us who past out only 3 had been in the FCA.
    When was this if you don't mind me asking? The majority of PDFers I've been talking to said that they were in the FCA/RDF at some stage.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  11. #1261
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It is true, ask anyone in the PDF have they ever been in the FCA/RDF.
    Only one person in my Company was in the FCA before joining the PDF.
    In my recruit platoon out of the 28 of us who past out only 3 had been in the FCA.
    I can't speak to that. I can only tell you that I know a lot of people who're now PDF, who were FCÁ back in the day (we fed into 2 Bn, principally).

  12. #1262
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The FLR is a paper force of ex-PDF and doesnt train or cost anything to keep.

    What time wasters?

    Very very few PDF have ever been in the FCA/RDF.

    The CD do very little as it is so what can the RDF do for them.
    In order:

    - That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.

    - Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?

    - I do not believe that I can I can take your statement on the number of RDF/FCA now in the PDF as fact. Many of the people I've known in the reserve over the years are now PDF.

    - The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.

  13. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    In order:

    - That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.

    - Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?

    - I do not believe that I can I can take your statement on the number of RDF/FCA now in the PDF as fact. Many of the people I've known in the reserve over the years are now PDF.

    - The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  14. #1264
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    **** no.

    Being a member of the RDF doesn't make you good enough for the PDF. People should be getting places based on merit, not what volunteer organisation they're a part of.
    Being in the RDF is a good way to prove 'merit', though. A good number of the people I knew who went PDF were NCOs, instructed on the Pots, had orienteering, VW Trophy medals etc. It's an excellent levelling-field way to see what people from very different backgrounds and opportunities can make of themselves.

    I would never claim that getting into the RDF automatically makes you PDF-grade (God knows there were enough that I thought should have been kicked out, never mind being trusted with a loaded rifle), just that I think both organisations would benefit from this being one of the prerequisites.

  15. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    Being in the RDF is a good way to prove 'merit', though. A good number of the people I knew who went PDF were NCOs, instructed on the Pots, had orienteering, VW Trophy medals etc. It's an excellent levelling-field way to see what people from very different backgrounds and opportunities can make of themselves.

    I would never claim that getting into the RDF automatically makes you PDF-grade (God knows there were enough that I thought should have been kicked out, never mind being trusted with a loaded rifle), just that I think both organisations would benefit from this being one of the prerequisites.
    It's not a good way to prove "merit" though, all it shows is that you spent time in a volunteer organisation that pretty much serves no purpose at all.

    What about people who work certain hours and can't commit time to the RDF, or are in college and can't commit time to the RDF? It doesn't level the field at all.

    Being in the RDF shouldn't ever be considered as being necessary for enlistment in the PDF.

  16. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    - Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
    From my own experience, the two biggest bluffer's in my Recruit Platoon were ex RDF members. The lads who won Best Soldier and Runner Up Best Soldier came in off civvie street having never served in the RDF.

    Plenty of ex RDF members end up as barrack rats, as do lads who came in off civvie street.

  17. #1267
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    It's not a good way to prove "merit" though, all it shows is that you spent time in a volunteer organisation that pretty much serves no purpose at all.

    What about people who work certain hours and can't commit time to the RDF, or are in college and can't commit time to the RDF? It doesn't level the field at all.
    The RDF isn't just 'any' volunteer organisation, it's the primary reserve component of the Defence Forces. If it serves no purpose, as you say, then where does that leave the PDF? Surely the Guards can carry out most (all) PDF roles?

    People in college have the time to parade, do weekends and camps, at least in my experience. Your objection on people having jobs is valid. The need for employment legislation to make/encourage employers to release people for reservist training, is somewhere that we seriously lag other western nations.

  18. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    The RDF isn't just 'any' volunteer organisation, it's the primary reserve component of the Defence Forces. If it serves no purpose, as you say, then where does that leave the PDF? Surely the Guards can carry out most (all) PDF roles?
    What actual purpose does it serve then? Although I can't confirm last years numbers, in 2009 just under 2,500 members of the RDF qualified for Grat. That's less than one third it's establishment.... So how about instead of it not serving a purpose, we'll just say it's not fit for purpose?

    When a member of the Garda can operate a Mowag on a long range patrol in Chad or man an OP in Chad, let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    People in college have the time to parade, do weekends and camps, at least in my experience. Your objection on people having jobs is valid. The need for employment legislation to make/encourage employers to release people for reservist training, is somewhere that we seriously lag other western nations.
    What about when exam season rolls around, should they be expected to sacrifice exams for the RDF in order to make sure they can still go for a career in the PDF?

  19. #1269
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    From my own experience, the two biggest bluffer's in my Recruit Platoon were ex RDF members. The lads who won Best Soldier and Runner Up Best Soldier came in off civvie street having never served in the RDF.

    Plenty of ex RDF members end up as barrack rats, as do lads who came in off civvie street.
    Look - I respect what your own experience is here. I don't know who you are or who you might know, so I'm not going to argue with you.

    I can only tell you what I (and some others here, I think) have as our own experiences. It takes a whole lot of commitment to sacrifice the time and effort to be buggering off to Gormanston for a weekend to do menial work for a shoot (or whatever), for no money and no reward other than the love of the military life.

  20. #1270
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    What actual purpose does it serve then? Although I can't confirm last years numbers, in 2009 just under 2,500 members of the RDF qualified for Grat. That's less than one third it's establishment.... So how about instead of it not serving a purpose, we'll just say it's not fit for purpose?
    The problems affecting the RDF strength in the last couple of years - principally the disasters that were integration and rationalisation of units - have been done to death in many places, not least here. If you do want to re-run them, though, I'd prefer we start a separate thread.

    When a member of the Garda can operate a Mowag on a long range patrol in Chad or man an OP in Chad, let me know.
    Neither of these things is essential, now is it? Would anyone in Ireland notice if we were to cancel these make-work programs for the PDF? What purpose do they serve apart from getting UN money?

    What about when exam season rolls around, should they be expected to sacrifice exams for the RDF in order to make sure they can still go for a career in the PDF?
    People are certainly expected to do everything possible to accomodate the demands of what they signed up for, in my experience (I was, and pressured by officers to do camp in the Glen while being bussed in to do my Leaving exams).

  21. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.
    The FLR is a paper force incase of a war or something bad happens and we need trained men and women to increase the PDFs strength without having to wait 7 months until more recruits are trained.
    We dont need to waste tens of millions of euros from the defence budget every year training people who have left the army in stuff they already know.

    Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?
    The RDF does not prepare anyone for PDF training or a fulltime military career.

    The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.
    The PDF does very little ATCA stuff. Yeh we cleared a bit of snow but now often does that happen.
    Are you saying you are willing to take time of work to dress up in DPMs and clear snow for a few weeks?
    Last edited by Rhodes; 6th April 2011 at 22:03.

  22. #1272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    There's also too much of an over-reliance on shoving people with degrees onto Pot. Officer courses. This isn't how the regular army promote from the ranks, so why should we?
    There is an element of it for DEs.

    [*]The First and Second Line Reserves must be amalgamated. The First Line may not particularly like this (how often does it train now?) but there are surely ways to sweeten the pill.
    Definitely

    [*]Recruitment to the PDF should only be through the RDF, which weeds out time-wasters (they cream off the top of RDF in any case).
    Disagree! Not everyone will have opportunity to join and then you have to reteach anyway. For this to work all RDF recruits would have to do full PDF recruit training - no funds!

    [*]There should be a role for the RDF in Civil Defence, which would be to the benefit of both organisations.
    There is radiological monitoring.

    [*]There should be flexible re-enlistment/re-commissioning - certainly, years served previously in the RDF should be added to the age limit if you try to re-join.[/LIST]

    Sin iad.
    To re-enlist/re-commission in RDF yes definitely (not PDF and retain rank it wouldn't work unless PDF & RDF to exactly the same courses)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    The FLR is a paper force of ex-PDF and doesnt train or cost anything to keep.
    The FLR are paid a gratuity!



    Very very few PDF have ever been in the FCA/RDF.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    It is true, ask anyone in the PDF have they ever been in the FCA/RDF.
    Only one person in my Company was in the FCA before joining the PDF.
    In my recruit platoon out of the 28 of us who past out only 3 had been in the FCA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    In order:

    - That the FLR doesn't at present do what it's supposed to do (train annually) isn't an argument against integration. Pay for RDF is negligible in terms of the Defence vote, anyway, so the FLR addition won't have a big financial effect.

    - Each stage of the PDF intakes (recruit and cadet) obviously includes people who are wasting time, even if unintentionally. And people certainly drop out of the recruit intakes. If they cannot be arsed to invest the time required for the RDF, how likely are they to not just end up as barrack rats?

    - I do not believe that I can I can take your statement on the number of RDF/FCA now in the PDF as fact. Many of the people I've known in the reserve over the years are now PDF.

    - The Civil Defence have a lack of trained manpower, and the reserves have trained manpower but are not allowed to do much. I don't think that the PDF will suffer by permitting the reserve to take on ATCA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    Plenty of ex RDF members end up as barrack rats, as do lads who came in off civvie street.
    In fairness some of them could have been full-time FCA.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post
    What actual purpose does it serve then? Although I can't confirm last years numbers, in 2009 just under 2,500 members of the RDF qualified for Grat. That's less than one third it's establishment.... So how about instead of it not serving a purpose, we'll just say it's not fit for purpose?
    Your not wrong HA, but if the MA/DOD wanted to a useable & trained reserve, they have the power, having said that individuals and some in the organisation do not do themselves any favours!

  23. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wicklaman View Post
    Being in the RDF is a good way to prove 'merit', though. A good number of the people I knew who went PDF were NCOs, instructed on the Pots, had orienteering, VW Trophy medals etc. It's an excellent levelling-field way to see what people from very different backgrounds and opportunities can make of themselves.

    I would never claim that getting into the RDF automatically makes you PDF-grade (God knows there were enough that I thought should have been kicked out, never mind being trusted with a loaded rifle), just that I think both organisations would benefit from this being one of the prerequisites.
    Being in the RDF means notting when it comes to PDF recruit training. All PDF recruits start from scratch.

  24. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Your not wrong HA, but if the MA/DOD wanted to a useable & trained reserve, they have the power, having said that individuals and some in the organisation do not do themselves any favours!
    I certainly wouldn't argue against that, the MA are certainly making a balls of utilising the RDF in any capacity.

    Which is why in it's current guise, it just doesn't serve a viable purpose. Which is why an organisation in that state shouldn't be the sole conduit for the PDF to recruit from.

  25. #1275
    Wicklaman
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Being in the RDF means notting when it comes to PDF recruit training. All PDF recruits start from scratch.
    I see what the problem is - my fault for being unclear.

    I'm not advocating any change from the current, where Sgt. Byrne goes in and finds himself Recruit Byrne on day one. What I'm saying is that it be a prerequisite, just like having a clean record. It would help both the PDF (savings) and the RDF (numbers), in terms of recruitment.

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