Recruitment/Promotion Embargo (untill end of 2010!)

[bagel]

Yes they were. There was a 4 year promotion freeze.

Please provide empirical evidence.

So its just a personal prejudice then. There is a view that officers are some form of priveleged crowd of middle class people who got where they were because of "pull" or influence whereas the reality couldn't be further from the truth.

No, its not just personal prejudice.
I happen to be neither prejudiced towards nor against Officers.

Correct, there is such a view held. I wonder why?
Is there mass prejudice out there against Officers?
Or maybe some peoples opinions on Officers privileges are somewhat justified?

Upon what do you base your claim that "the reality couldn't be further from the truth"?

Not all PDF officers attend college. 1 third of the last 3 cadet classes were graduates. There "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army. The Army has decided it wants its "middle management" to have the benefits of a university education and I am sure similar arrangements are the norm in other Armies.

Unlike "any soldier in the country" Officers attending College are not "living in" as they are not engaged in activities of a military fashion and are very, vary rarely called upon to perform military roles during the College Term.
This accommodation is equivalent to a benefit in kind, as are the subsidised meals in USAC. More privileges perhaps?

Contrary to what you believe, they are given a substantial allowance towards the cost of textbooks.
Don't take my word for it. Ask a few of them.


Our taxes pay for the expenditure on Defence.
I believe that paying for a College Education for Officers is something we can no longer afford.
I believe Officers are earning enough to pay for their own College Fees.
Perhaps recruiting Graduates only to the Officer Corps will save us a fortune and also free up Officers to perform military duties, as opposed to spending a minimum of three years in College Heaven?

[DeV]

I am pro the current scheme but would change it a bit:

- the 3rd level course must have a military value
- more recognition for prior learning (eg they would get exemptions from some subjects (or elements) of due to experience/education)


Heres an idea, the could do their 15 months, 6 months with an operational unit, min 3 months overseas, PSO Pln Cmdrs Cse and do 16/18 months in a special DF college course (with technical, academic & military subjects, there could be specialist modules). In exchange they get an honours degree.

Alternatively, they could have 3 streams in the Cadet School - Short Service (those with a degree), Graduates (of which there will be surplus in the next few years) and PDF other ranks.

[Barry]

Or short service commissions could be for those without degrees - people who would have to prove themselves to extend their commission. Thus Coy Comd/higher appointments would be restricted to those who have a degree already (and thus the educational standard everyone likes going on about), or those without a degree who have proven themselves to be shit hot.

Of course, if it happened in the PDF, all short service commissions would be extended by default.

[DeV]

Sorry I meant to say without a degree for short service commissions

[johnny no stars]

Let's wait see what happens in the budget to see if there will be more or less need for the DF to continue the USAC scheme. I heard fees will be in place for all those in 5th year or younger by the time they get to that stage, but current students won' t have to pay them. If fees are reintroduced and 3rd level is not accesssible for all anymore, well then....


As it stands, anyone who wants to go to college badly enough can. If you can't afford registration, you qualify for a grant and don't have to pay it. For that reason, with the current 3rd level set up, I honestly do not believe that there is a need for it. If you want a degree, go get one, but don't expect the state to pay you, put you up and have a job waiting for you for after you graduate just so you can get a degree.

[trellheim]

From PDFORRA Website :

Promotion Ban can have serious implications for effectiveness of Defence Forces
By PDFORRA

PDFORRA is surprised and disappointed that the government has decided to impose a ban on recruitment and promotion within the Defence Forces. It has taken a decade to rebuild the Defence Forces into a modern efficient organisation from the ravages of previous cutbacks – and now all this effort and progress can be seriously downgraded.

Gerry Rooney, General Secretary of PDFORRA said today, “The Defence Forces has very serious commitment both at home and overseas. The organisation is developed on the basis of new recruits being engaged annually and older members moving up the line or retiring. This system also ensures that promotion at all levels is required throughout the Defence Forces to ensure that the force retains its edge and gaps are filled as they emerge. A ban on recruitment and promotion over an extended period can have very serious repercussions for the overall effectiveness of the Defence Forces – and it should not be applied at this critical time in the organisations development”.

Whether in the Army, Air Corps or Naval Service, young blood is always required. Many of the tasks require the commitment of young personnel who develop their skills annually and then move to higher rank and more responsibility. To block the flow of young blood into the Defence Forces and to stagnate the organisation with a ban on promotion is not just detrimental for morale but for overall efficiency.

[hedgehog]

Yes they were. There was a 4 year promotion freeze.


So its just a personal prejudice then. There is a view that officers are some form of priveleged crowd of middle class people who got where they were because of "pull" or influence whereas the reality couldn't be further from the truth.


Not all PDF officers attend college. 1 third of the last 3 cadet classes were graduates. There "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army. The Army has decided it wants its "middle management" to have the benefits of a university education and I am sure similar arrangements are the norm in other Armies.

ICUN you werent around during the last promotion embargo- the DF put out a very legitimate complaint that there was a major shortage of Captains and Comdts in some compainises- in our case it was B Coy- which was a phantom coy- when the matter of trying to promote NCO's into B Coy arose- it was pointed out that there was a promotion embargo in place
Officers DID NOT suffer and I doubt they will suffer this one either


Point 2- Officers are a differnt class- and thats the nature of the beast-

Point 3- USAC is not like any barracks I have ever been in- and your telling porkies by saying

There "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army

Can you point out what barracks has enlisted accom up to USAC standards

the 3 years for each year is a misnomer- Young Officers hit college about about year 3 to 4
they attend university and get paid handsomely for it ( 7 enlisted personnel so far have had this luxury)
After they have done 3 years in college they have paid back 1 years college

they arrive back to the unit at approx year 7 to 8
6 years after this they can leave

Offiers grat and pension (old system) kicks in after 12 years

so on year 14- 15 after getting a good education and experience
they now can go to whatsever out there

This is not an anti Officer rant- I just like the full story.


as for the degree thing

Michael Collins never had a degree and he bet the Brits

most of our current leaders have degrees and masters

and look at the shit we are in

ICUN- where have you been - havent seen you on here in a while

[bagel]

Hedgehog, I doff my cap to you.
PDF Officers don't suffer - FACT.

A lot of what's wrong with this country can be put down to ignorance.
People are totally ignorant of what's happening in the organs of the State.
As already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.
We cannot afford such largesse whilst badly needed Special Needs Teachers are being laid off?
Farcical wastage of public funds is happening all over the place.
Prison Officers receive an allowance for dry-cleaning their uniforms, ffs how can anybody justify such mis-spending of taxpayers money?

[hedgehog]

and dont forget whilse Officers are at college- they also receive the Uniform allowance


Bagel- put your cap back

[Eddie Dillon]

Hedgehog, I doff my cap to you.
PDF Officers don't suffer - FACT.

The pension levy/promotion embargo/future tax rise and pay cuts don't apply to officers? I could have sworn they were public servants too. Obviously not.

As already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.

That is bull, and I have that from the horse's mouth. There is a library in USAC, any books not in there that you need you buy yourself, keep the receipt and get the money back at the end of the year. Hardly a 'hefty allowance'. Refund of expenses is fairly common in the public and private working world. Also the USAC accom. consists of a bed, desk, sink and shelves. Standard living in conditions I'd imagine

Hedgehog, of course officers are a different class. Wouldn't category be a more suitable word though? Surely an instructor is in a different category to a recruit in the exact same way, the sergeant to the private too etc etc.

Finally, if an officer isn't academically qualified and this is deemed important for a junior leader in the military, it makes sense to me to get him so. It's a good enough system for every other army.

[Truck Driver]

News from the locality in question....

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/No...-at.5127399.jp

[hedgehog]

Most books are in the 60 to 150 class/category

a couple of books every semester

equates to a fairly big lump sum- Eddie you may not describe it as hefty, me being a poor working category solcier would.

and no one actually said Officers were immune from the pension/tax debacles

what was said was that judging by past performances- the embargo on promotions will not affect that category of person as much as the enlisted/working category people


If a degree is now a requisite for a great Military leader why is there a proliferation of them doing Arts and commerce

a knowledge of how the financial world works or of geography
will not make them a better military leader

[northie]

Most books are in the 60 to 150 class/category

a couple of books every semester

equates to a fairly big lump sum- Eddie you may not describe it as hefty, me being a poor working category solcier would.

and no one actually said Officers were immune from the pension/tax debacles

what was said was that judging by past performances- the embargo on promotions will not affect that category of person as much as the enlisted/working category people


If a degree is now a requisite for a great Military leader why is there a proliferation of them doing Arts and commerce

a knowledge of how the financial world works or of geography
will not make them a better military leader

Hedgehog - its way more than a few per semester. If its law or commerce then these are in the sixty odd quid or so league and above. Other subjects may come in lower and you might get away with second hand. If your lucky your lecturer will make photocopies available for you but expect to pay a small fortune in printing. Assuming you have six modules per semester, there will probably be 2 core texts for each -say something between €40-60 per module on books, another thirty for printing or so.

Looking from the outside I would think what the goal is with the degree is to have the leadership level of the organisation equipped with the learning skills needed to get through said course. Regarding arts - I would have thought that history and politics are very useful to any officer that may be taking part in peace support operations around the globe.

UCD now has a war studies department http://www.ucd.ie/warstudies/index.html but its MA only.

[easyrider]

If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.

What doesn't seem to make much sense is recruiting non-graduate officer cadets, and then sending them straight off to college for 3 or 4 years.

[johnny no stars]

Hedgehog - its way more than a few per semester. If its law or commerce then these are in the sixty odd quid or so league and above. Other subjects may come in lower and you might get away with second hand. If your lucky your lecturer will make photocopies available for you but expect to pay a small fortune in printing. Assuming you have six modules per semester, there will probably be 2 core texts for each -say something between €40-60 per module on books, another thirty for printing or so.

And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years

[WilcoOut]

And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years

well done!

and i bet it was written by the lecturer you have and you were made buy it. i hate when they do that!

[northie]

And there was me begrudging the 50 euro I spent on a text book this year... the first I've bought in 2 years

Thats if you were to buy each and every book in the up to date version from the campus bookshop in UCD then thats what it would cost. If you were to photocopy the addittional reading then you'd be well be into the kind of money. Of course most non live at home's don't have this kind of cash so they share books between friends, try and scan them to PDF files etc. But in theory - if you were to follow the recommended reading lists i'd suggest you'd pay €60-80 per module on books.

[DeV]

I did 5 years in college and covered around 20+ subjects and had to buy around 3-5 books (got some for cheap from the net & had to buy 2/3 new € 75-100 each).

[ICUN]

Please provide empirical evidence.

I dont have emperical evidence but 4 commandants talking about when it happened to them is enough for me.

Upon what do you base your claim that "the reality couldn't be further from the truth"?

Because I know about 60 of them.

Unlike "any soldier in the country" Officers attending College are not "living in" as they are not engaged in activities of a military fashion and are very, vary rarely called upon to perform military roles during the College Term.

Yes they are "single living in". USAC is a military establishment, complete with a CO and duty panel.

T.......the subsidised meals in USAC. More privileges perhaps?

There are no dining facilities in USAC.

Contrary to what you believe, they are given a substantial allowance towards the cost of textbooks.Don't take my word for it. Ask a few of them.

I don't need to ask any of them. I know tha they can claim the money spent on any books as an expens. They dont get a "substantial allowance".

Our taxes pay for the expenditure on Defence.
[quote]
And your point? People in the DF pay tax too.

I believe that paying for a College Education for Officers is something we can no longer afford.

They arent attending some private fee paying institution, They are getting paid their salary and returning to work during college breaks.

I believe Officers are earning enough to pay for their own College Fees.

Nobody pays fees in Ireland bar registration fees which are a couple of grand at a maximum.

Perhaps recruiting Graduates only to the Officer Corps will save us a fortune and also free up Officers to perform military duties, as opposed to spending a minimum of three years in College Heaven?

It would probably save a bit of money alright but it isn't really fair to a young 18 year old who wants to pursue a career as an Army Officer to make him wait 3 or 4 years to go to college before he can join. Also, I'm sure it would contravene some kind of discrimination legislation.

As already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.
We cannot afford such largesse whilst badly needed Special Needs Teachers are being laid off?

No they aren't. As has been stated, they can reclaim what they spend on books. An allowance that might actually make a difference if it was axed would be TD's "walking about money" or any of the many other allowances they get.

ICUN you werent around during the last promotion embargo......
Officers DID NOT suffer and I doubt they will suffer this one either

No I wasnt but I have heard 1st hand from plenty who were effected by it. Tell that to the lad I know who is getting 600-800 less a month because of this and will still have to do the same job.

Point 2- Officers are a differnt class- and thats the nature of the beast-

Well, it depends how you define class. If you define it as the socio-economic group someone comes from then there is no such thing as a "class" of officer. I know officers from single parent families, who have parents on the dole, who have parents who are loaded. Same applies for enlisted personnel I know.

Point 3- USAC is not like any barracks I have ever been in- and your tellin

What I meant was, officers attending USAC are afforded the opportunity of staying in military accomodation, the same way anyone else in the army can live in army accomodation. Army accomodation varies widely regardless of rank. Shite damp 200 year old buildings dont discriminate between who is within their walls.

ICUN- where have you been - havent seen you on here in a while

I'm away with work, not too easy to get online in my current location.

If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.

They have that already - Pot Officers Course, one was run a year ago.

Nobody is denying that getting paid your salary while going to college is a good deal......but if the army want their officers to have a third level education thats the way its going to be. The reason behind, apart from the general benefits of a 3rd level qualification in the non-subject specific skills that are acquired, it is mainly to do with later career stuff. For example, many senior command courses are accredited as a Masters qualification and you would need a degree in something beforehand.

[Barry]

It would probably save a bit of money alright but it isn't really fair to a young 18 year old who wants to pursue a career as an Army Officer to make him wait 3 or 4 years to go to college before he can join. Also, I'm sure it would contravene some kind of discrimination legislation.

If you want it bad enough then you'll get a degree. If getting a degree (which is useful in life in general, outside of the DF) is too much for you then you probably aren't cut out to be an officer in the first place......

As far as discrimination legistation goes - change educational requirements to "level 8 degree or equivalent". Sorted.

[hedgehog]

Lads dont take it out on ICUN

He is a good guy

[Truck Driver]

I never bought a book in all the time I was in third level education. Lecturers provided their own notes. "Core texts" as you put it were in the Library.

Lucky you.

I can recall having to purchase at least 3 books.

One was an Applied Mechanics book which the lecturer used quite a bit.
B'stard of a subject, my heart goes out to Mech Engineers who would have to
go into it in a lot more detail than I did

The other two were Eng Maths books by Stroud which were virtually required
reading for Eng students where I was

Lecturers wrote/displayed notes, but never gave out notes in DIT, AFAIR

Getting back to the immediate subject at hand, I would be leaning towards graduates being
recruited fot the Cadets, or at least new 2/Lts having to "serve their time" before going to
3rd Level - someone mentioned the maturity aspect of it - I woud be in full agreement,
especially when I think of some of the childish stuff that went on when I was
a poor student

It is the taxpayer's hard earned cash that is paying for it, after all

[johnny no stars]

Lucky you.

I can recall having to purchase at least 3 books.

One was an Applied Mechanics book which the lecturer used quite a bit.
B'stard of a subject, my heart goes out to Mech Engineers who would have to
go into it in a lot more detail than I did

The other two were Eng Maths books by Stroud which were virtually required
reading for Eng students where I was

Lecturers wrote/displayed notes, but never gave out notes in DIT, AFAIR

lol, that's pretty much what I had to buy - 2 stroud books and a mechanics of materials book, except I didn't buy the maths books as I just take decent notes in maths. Besides, they hand out notes in DIT now

It's perfectly reasonable to expect that the officers do NOT need to buy every recommended text. If they're doing law or something like that fair enough, but what happened to using the library or taking notes? There's a saving I can think of. No more refund of monies spent on text books. They earn enough anyway to be able to pay for it.

[Goldie fish]

If the DF decide that officers should have degrees, then they should recruit graduates. However there should also be a mechanism for promoting suitable enlisted personnel, who may not have degrees, either by recognising their years of non-commissioned experience as an alternative to a degree, and/or providing educational opportunities for suitable candidates.

What doesn't seem to make much sense is recruiting non-graduate officer cadets, and then sending them straight off to college for 3 or 4 years.

Definitely. I believe this harks back to the days when only the "upper classes" went to university, and it was percieved that to maintain the "officer class" then each officer needed to be a graduate.
Those days are gone.
Time for the DF to move on.
If you want to go to university, then do so at your own expense.
If you want to be an officer with a degree, Join then.

Some of the courses these people do, are pointless in the Job of Manager in military(which is after all what an officer is). This is borne out by the fact that graduates from many other areas, be it technical or non technical in nature, can do a cadetship and become an "ordinary" officer.

[greyfox]

http://www.1bderdf.com/

note the thing at the end regards recruiting