Originally posted by greyfox
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Recruitment/Promotion Embargo (untill end of 2010!)
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Originally posted by ICUN View PostTell that to all the Lt's who wont be getting promoted in July.
What experience is telling you PDF officers will be exempt? Were they exempt when this was done before in the 80's?
Regarding experience, i've none in the PDF but have thirty two and a half years experience in the FCA/RDF, twenty six years of which have been as an officer.
What i've observed and experienced during that time leads me to form the opinion that PDF Officers are treated differently to mere mortals such as I and my socio-economic class.
I may be incorrect but PDF Officers didn't suffer from cutbacks in the 1980's, at least as far as I can recollect.
I don't have empirical evidence to support my views so you're justified in being sceptical of my statements.
As PDF Officers are paid while attending College (and provided with free/subsidised accommodation and also given funds towards the cost of their books), I believe they should pay for their own Courses Fees.
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I may be incorrect but PDF Officers didn't suffer from cutbacks in the 1980's, at least as far as I can recollect.
I don't have empirical evidence to support my views so you're justified in being sceptical of my statements.
As PDF Officers are paid while attending College (and provided with free/subsidised accommodation and also given funds towards the cost of their books), I believe they should pay for their own Courses Fees.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army. The Army has decided it wants its "middle management" to have the benefits of a university education and I am sure similar arrangements are the norm in other Armies.
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Well said ICUN.
(Lobotomy references aside)
I would highly expect an officer to be highly educated and I wholly agree with you there. The people at the top need to be the clever people.
I agree with everything you just said there. Absolutely on the money.
I don't beleive that the RDF will be affected by the cutbacks too much. As there is precious little investment put in (whne compared to the PDF overall) and I would imagine that will remain the same.
I thinkt he only real cutback for RDF personnel that we are seeing, and will see, is the paid mandays being cut from 42 to 21 days.
Maybe one or two things from a logistical perspective, ie annual training inside your own brigade only, but overall I thinkt he RDF will not be affected too much from this.
I doubt a recruitment embargo will happen for the RDF, because unlike the 80s, the reserve fulfills a greater deal of functions and works with the PDF. Whereas 20/30 years ago it was its own little thing and a wholly seperate entity.
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Originally posted by ICUN View PostYes they were. There was a 4 year promotion freeze.
Originally posted by ICUN View PostSo its just a personal prejudice then. There is a view that officers are some form of priveleged crowd of middle class people who got where they were because of "pull" or influence whereas the reality couldn't be further from the truth.
I happen to be neither prejudiced towards nor against Officers.
Correct, there is such a view held. I wonder why?
Is there mass prejudice out there against Officers?
Or maybe some peoples opinions on Officers privileges are somewhat justified?
Upon what do you base your claim that "the reality couldn't be further from the truth"?
Originally posted by ICUN View PostNot all PDF officers attend college. 1 third of the last 3 cadet classes were graduates. There "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army. The Army has decided it wants its "middle management" to have the benefits of a university education and I am sure similar arrangements are the norm in other Armies.
This accommodation is equivalent to a benefit in kind, as are the subsidised meals in USAC. More privileges perhaps?
Contrary to what you believe, they are given a substantial allowance towards the cost of textbooks.
Don't take my word for it. Ask a few of them.
Our taxes pay for the expenditure on Defence.
I believe that paying for a College Education for Officers is something we can no longer afford.
I believe Officers are earning enough to pay for their own College Fees.
Perhaps recruiting Graduates only to the Officer Corps will save us a fortune and also free up Officers to perform military duties, as opposed to spending a minimum of three years in College Heaven?
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I am pro the current scheme but would change it a bit:
- the 3rd level course must have a military value
- more recognition for prior learning (eg they would get exemptions from some subjects (or elements) of due to experience/education)
Heres an idea, the could do their 15 months, 6 months with an operational unit, min 3 months overseas, PSO Pln Cmdrs Cse and do 16/18 months in a special DF college course (with technical, academic & military subjects, there could be specialist modules). In exchange they get an honours degree.
Alternatively, they could have 3 streams in the Cadet School - Short Service (those with a degree), Graduates (of which there will be surplus in the next few years) and PDF other ranks.
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Or short service commissions could be for those without degrees - people who would have to prove themselves to extend their commission. Thus Coy Comd/higher appointments would be restricted to those who have a degree already (and thus the educational standard everyone likes going on about), or those without a degree who have proven themselves to be shit hot.
Of course, if it happened in the PDF, all short service commissions would be extended by default.
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Let's wait see what happens in the budget to see if there will be more or less need for the DF to continue the USAC scheme. I heard fees will be in place for all those in 5th year or younger by the time they get to that stage, but current students won' t have to pay them. If fees are reintroduced and 3rd level is not accesssible for all anymore, well then....
As it stands, anyone who wants to go to college badly enough can. If you can't afford registration, you qualify for a grant and don't have to pay it. For that reason, with the current 3rd level set up, I honestly do not believe that there is a need for it. If you want a degree, go get one, but don't expect the state to pay you, put you up and have a job waiting for you for after you graduate just so you can get a degree.Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
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From PDFORRA Website :
Promotion Ban can have serious implications for effectiveness of Defence Forces
By PDFORRA
PDFORRA is surprised and disappointed that the government has decided to impose a ban on recruitment and promotion within the Defence Forces. It has taken a decade to rebuild the Defence Forces into a modern efficient organisation from the ravages of previous cutbacks – and now all this effort and progress can be seriously downgraded.
Gerry Rooney, General Secretary of PDFORRA said today, “The Defence Forces has very serious commitment both at home and overseas. The organisation is developed on the basis of new recruits being engaged annually and older members moving up the line or retiring. This system also ensures that promotion at all levels is required throughout the Defence Forces to ensure that the force retains its edge and gaps are filled as they emerge. A ban on recruitment and promotion over an extended period can have very serious repercussions for the overall effectiveness of the Defence Forces – and it should not be applied at this critical time in the organisations development”.
Whether in the Army, Air Corps or Naval Service, young blood is always required. Many of the tasks require the commitment of young personnel who develop their skills annually and then move to higher rank and more responsibility. To block the flow of young blood into the Defence Forces and to stagnate the organisation with a ban on promotion is not just detrimental for morale but for overall efficiency."Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "
"No, they're trying to fly the tank"
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Originally posted by ICUN View PostYes they were. There was a 4 year promotion freeze.
So its just a personal prejudice then. There is a view that officers are some form of priveleged crowd of middle class people who got where they were because of "pull" or influence whereas the reality couldn't be further from the truth.
Not all PDF officers attend college. 1 third of the last 3 cadet classes were graduates. There "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army. The Army has decided it wants its "middle management" to have the benefits of a university education and I am sure similar arrangements are the norm in other Armies.
ICUN you werent around during the last promotion embargo- the DF put out a very legitimate complaint that there was a major shortage of Captains and Comdts in some compainises- in our case it was B Coy- which was a phantom coy- when the matter of trying to promote NCO's into B Coy arose- it was pointed out that there was a promotion embargo in place
Officers DID NOT suffer and I doubt they will suffer this one either
Point 2- Officers are a differnt class- and thats the nature of the beast-
Point 3- USAC is not like any barracks I have ever been in- and your telling porkies by sayingThere "subsidised" accomodation is in what is basically a barracks block and is no more than that which is provided to any soldier in the country if they opt to 'live in'. They arent given money towards books.
Also, for each year of college each officer has to complete 3 years of service or else they will need to repay in the region of 20k for each year of college if they want to leave the Army
the 3 years for each year is a misnomer- Young Officers hit college about about year 3 to 4
they attend university and get paid handsomely for it ( 7 enlisted personnel so far have had this luxury)
After they have done 3 years in college they have paid back 1 years college
they arrive back to the unit at approx year 7 to 8
6 years after this they can leave
Offiers grat and pension (old system) kicks in after 12 years
so on year 14- 15 after getting a good education and experience
they now can go to whatsever out there
This is not an anti Officer rant- I just like the full story.
as for the degree thing
Michael Collins never had a degree and he bet the Brits
most of our current leaders have degrees and masters
and look at the shit we are in
ICUN- where have you been - havent seen you on here in a whileThings fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
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Hedgehog, I doff my cap to you.
PDF Officers don't suffer - FACT.
A lot of what's wrong with this country can be put down to ignorance.
People are totally ignorant of what's happening in the organs of the State.
As already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.
We cannot afford such largesse whilst badly needed Special Needs Teachers are being laid off?
Farcical wastage of public funds is happening all over the place.
Prison Officers receive an allowance for dry-cleaning their uniforms, ffs how can anybody justify such mis-spending of taxpayers money?
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and dont forget whilse Officers are at college- they also receive the Uniform allowance
Bagel- put your cap backThings fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
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Originally posted by bagel View PostHedgehog, I doff my cap to you.
PDF Officers don't suffer - FACT.
Originally posted by bagel View PostAs already mentioned, well-paid Officers being paid a hefty allowance for textbooks.
Hedgehog, of course officers are a different class. Wouldn't category be a more suitable word though? Surely an instructor is in a different category to a recruit in the exact same way, the sergeant to the private too etc etc.
Finally, if an officer isn't academically qualified and this is deemed important for a junior leader in the military, it makes sense to me to get him so. It's a good enough system for every other army."Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied."
Otto Von Bismark
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