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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Why is the assumption that any new berthage is within the basis?
    If the NS does ever get an EPV/MRV it could be much large than any current vessel.
    There is a Request for tender issued by the Department of Defence, to dredge basin West plus West wall area of silt( Contaminated ), to fit out west wall to berth 2 x 90 metre vessels to include shore power, water, lighting, access roads, and work areas, and to make staggered berthing for two ships in the Graving Dock. The tender also includes surveying the condition of Spenser Jetty. My own view is in an earlier comment. With all walls occupied by single berths, the central manoeuvring area will be about 140metres reducing towards the Basin entrance. Not enough for 130metre vessel.

  2. #152
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    I don't like the dismissal of the stonework in the graving dock. It served a purpose. The document also seems to be unaware of the function of a caisson and the usefulness it, and the pump house earmarked for demolition, could provide.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    It started sinking sometime round 2010, was scrapped soon after. Was in frequent use for maintenance of the CPVs but couldn't manage anything much bigger. There was a much larger one along side it for years.


    Given that a lot of our energy production will in the coming years be offshore it is a pity that the old facilities have gone. Even just the fabrication of the towers would be a decent amount of work.

  4. #154
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    Well Leibherr are assembling cranes there at present. There is still plenty of space for fabrication, and plenty of mobile crane suppliers with impressive lift capabilities nearby so all is not lost, but modern fixed STS or Dockyard.cranes.make the whole business a bit safer.
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  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Well Leibherr are assembling cranes there at present. There is still plenty of space for fabrication, and plenty of mobile crane suppliers with impressive lift capabilities nearby so all is not lost, but modern fixed STS or Dockyard.cranes.make the whole business a bit safer.
    The site is described as DSG CORK Terminal. My view is that it will be a cargo handling terminal and repair will become a diminishing part of the facility. Perhaps long term afloat repairs will disappear. However since a lot of ships are gearless, large cranes , mobile or otherwise will be essential for cargo handling. Trucking will also be needed over narrow winding roads.

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  8. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The site is described as DSG CORK Terminal. My view is that it will be a cargo handling terminal and repair will become a diminishing part of the facility. Perhaps long term afloat repairs will disappear. However since a lot of ships are gearless, large cranes , mobile or otherwise will be essential for cargo handling. Trucking will also be needed over narrow winding roads.
    If they can get the 1500t mobile crane in, which has a travelling weight of 106t, they can get trucks in. It may also give some incentive to modernising and widening that stretch of road.
    They did it on the Whitegate road when the refinery was built over 50 years ago.
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  10. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The site is described as DSG CORK Terminal. My view is that it will be a cargo handling terminal and repair will become a diminishing part of the facility. Perhaps long term afloat repairs will disappear. However since a lot of ships are gearless, large cranes , mobile or otherwise will be essential for cargo handling. Trucking will also be needed over narrow winding roads.
    Why go by road when you can go by water?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCOwMmkP-94

    If you need something smaller then
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mr_pCrhTkk

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  12. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Why go by road when you can go by water?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCOwMmkP-94

    If you need something smaller then
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mr_pCrhTkk
    Ok. Ways to skin cats. No beaches at DSG yard. Just to note. I spent 2 years in total standing by building two ships at VCD. The offices and facilities were under the Building Slips and were adjacent and parallel to the graving dock. When a ship is docked, and dry, all ship's domestics shuts down except a single galley outlet for grey water. The crews used the wash and restrooms ashore. There seems to be no assignable facilities adjacent to the Dock now. The History of this sole national Dock is that when Lemass assembled 18 ocean going ships to feed the nation during 1939-1945, he knew they needed a drydock so the state took over Cork Dockyard for the use of ISL. In latter years the State has relinquished it's responsibility for key infrastructure to profit motivated entities. There is now some plan afoot at DSG and it isn't to improve ship repair and maintenance. The site except for sheds is flattened.

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  14. #159
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    No beaches - then use the slipways

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  16. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    No beaches - then use the slipways
    There is no way to get off the slipways. They are at an incline and don't finish on the seabed. They are designed for ships to slide off into a high tide. They don't work the other way round.
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  17. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Ok. Ways to skin cats. No beaches at DSG yard. Just to note. I spent 2 years in total standing by building two ships at VCD. The offices and facilities were under the Building Slips and were adjacent and parallel to the graving dock. When a ship is docked, and dry, all ship's domestics shuts down except a single galley outlet for grey water. The crews used the wash and restrooms ashore. There seems to be no assignable facilities adjacent to the Dock now. The History of this sole national Dock is that when Lemass assembled 18 ocean going ships to feed the nation during 1939-1945, he knew they needed a drydock so the state took over Cork Dockyard for the use of ISL. In latter years the State has relinquished it's responsibility for key infrastructure to profit motivated entities. There is now some plan afoot at DSG and it isn't to improve ship repair and maintenance. The site except for sheds is flattened.
    Given the imminent isolation of Ireland by the loss of the land bridge to Europe we need to refocus on our Maritime weaknesses. We must strive to be more self sufficient and not expect others to save us. In the upcoming Defence proposals/evaluations it is time to decide, once and for all, a Naval Stance for Ireland. Navy's are just NOT for Fishery Protection, and maritime policework , but require a series of response capabilities to reach a deterrence level for modern threats. Right now we are floundering and are losing manpower for more than two or more years. The result is a resizing mindset which of course weakens responses, and numbs ambition towards new tonnage and capability. In the mean time several countries are building up Navies and adding SSK's for the first time.

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  19. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Given the imminent isolation of Ireland by the loss of the land bridge to Europe we need to refocus on our Maritime weaknesses. We must strive to be more self sufficient and not expect others to save us. In the upcoming Defence proposals/evaluations it is time to decide, once and for all, a Naval Stance for Ireland. Navy's are just NOT for Fishery Protection, and maritime policework , but require a series of response capabilities to reach a deterrence level for modern threats. Right now we are floundering and are losing manpower for more than two or more years. The result is a resizing mindset which of course weakens responses, and numbs ambition towards new tonnage and capability. In the mean time several countries are building up Navies and adding SSK's for the first time.
    We only have to look at NZ, with a similar population and economy as ours, and a similar security profile. They can manage a Naval fleet of Helicopter capable OPVs and an MRV, as well as a fleet oiler, Dive support ship and 2 frigates. And without the financial support from their neighbouring continental states... OK they have crewing issues too, but nowhere near our problems..
    All it takes is political will.
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  21. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    We only have to look at NZ, with a similar population and economy as ours, and a similar security profile. They can manage a Naval fleet of Helicopter capable OPVs and an MRV, as well as a fleet oiler, Dive support ship and 2 frigates. And without the financial support from their neighbouring continental states... OK they have crewing issues too, but nowhere near our problems..
    All it takes is political will.
    This week from Nautical journals "Future Mine hunting system comes to CLYDE". It is a GRP style half decker which is equipped with side scan sonar and other tracking sensors to allow it map an area and detect the presence of UW ordnance or hazards. Although developmental with ATLAS Electronik on board it has reached Initial Operating Cabability ( IOC ) at HMNB CLYDE. It operates Crew on Board, Crew Ashore, or Autonomously. The boat is named RNMB HARRIER-Google for more information. The benefits might be many more units deployable for harbour, estuarine, river, or canal areas. Ships with ROV's and target destruction means may be still relevant for routes at sea.

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  23. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    This week from Nautical journals "Future Mine hunting system comes to CLYDE". It is a GRP style half decker which is equipped with side scan sonar and other tracking sensors to allow it map an area and detect the presence of UW ordnance or hazards. Although developmental with ATLAS Electronik on board it has reached Initial Operating Cabability ( IOC ) at HMNB CLYDE. It operates Crew on Board, Crew Ashore, or Autonomously. The boat is named RNMB HARRIER-Google for more information. The benefits might be many more units deployable for harbour, estuarine, river, or canal areas. Ships with ROV's and target destruction means may be still relevant for routes at sea.
    It is the Atlas Elektronik ARCIMS system, an 11m remote vessel that has been in development for some years. It can be ship based or shore based, indeed for the latter it can be truck mounted to allow ease of transport around the country.
    https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/sol...ms/arcims.html

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  25. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    We only have to look at NZ, with a similar population and economy as ours, and a similar security profile. They can manage a Naval fleet of Helicopter capable OPVs and an MRV, as well as a fleet oiler, Dive support ship and 2 frigates. And without the financial support from their neighbouring continental states... OK they have crewing issues too, but nowhere near our problems..
    All it takes is political will.
    Yes absolutely. Given the incident in the English Channel yesterday we need to look at and plan as to how we respond to un- warranted incidents at sea. A VTS monitoring of AIS information is the first clue to ships behaving abnormally or in a wrong approach lane. The follow up procedures when intervention becomes necessary is BY WHOM and with WHAT. Our National lack of response was aired not far away from Tuskar Lighthouse just a week ago, when a 4000 tonne container ship lost power.

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  27. #166
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    oo
    Last edited by sofa; 26th October 2020 at 16:46.

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    Considering that incident was concluded successfully through a combination of Coastguard coordination, RNLI response and a Waterford harbour tug, all within 4 hours, when the nearest naval asset was 10 hours away, I'm intrigues to know what alternative you propose, other than one of exorbitant cost.

  29. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egbeygia View Post
    Considering that incident was concluded successfully through a combination of Coastguard coordination, RNLI response and a Waterford harbour tug, all within 4 hours, when the nearest naval asset was 10 hours away, I'm intrigues to know what alternative you propose, other than one of exorbitant cost.
    The rescue was provided by the direct intervention of 3 RNLI ocean lifeboats that used their combined pulling power to hold the 4000 tonner until the tug could connect a tow. Rescues at sea of this nature require the vessel in trouble, or potential trouble, to contact national agencies , over stipulated channels, and ask for the required assistance. In a case where channels are NOT used, and other means of communications come into play, then the State should be operating a VTS system, with a tracking capability, to monitor the passage of vessels around our coasts. If vessels deviate from prescribed routes in the English Channel, they can be called by name or even overflown by French or British aircraft. Our Coast Guard should have a Surface picture.

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  31. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egbeygia View Post
    Considering that incident was concluded successfully through a combination of Coastguard coordination, RNLI response and a Waterford harbour tug, all within 4 hours, when the nearest naval asset was 10 hours away, I'm intrigues to know what alternative you propose, other than one of exorbitant cost.
    Maybe you should look up the story of the Penlee Lifeboat Disaster to see what could happen if the situation was in less then ideal weather conditions.
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  32. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Maybe you should look up the story of the Penlee Lifeboat Disaster to see what could happen if the situation was in less then ideal weather conditions.
    39th anniversary only around the corner. Blink of an eye. Still ashamed I ever worked for UT, knowing their policies after the disaster.
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  33. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The rescue was provided by the direct intervention of 3 RNLI ocean lifeboats that used their combined pulling power to hold the 4000 tonner until the tug could connect a tow. Rescues at sea of this nature require the vessel in trouble, or potential trouble, to contact national agencies , over stipulated channels, and ask for the required assistance. In a case where channels are NOT used, and other means of communications come into play, then the State should be operating a VTS system, with a tracking capability, to monitor the passage of vessels around our coasts. If vessels deviate from prescribed routes in the English Channel, they can be called by name or even overflown by French or British aircraft. Our Coast Guard should have a Surface picture.
    I can assure you that the Irish Coastguard does have a surface picture, fed from a number of sources and monitored at all times. Vessels acting on contravention of the Rules, displaying incorrect Nav Status for instance, are contacted, as are vessels at anchor outside port limits. I'm unsure as to why you find it necessary to fault those involved in a successfully concluded rescue other than to serve a very narrow agenda in support of the NS,which I can assure you at this moment in time is a pale imitation of the Service you were a member of.

  34. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    39th anniversary only around the corner. Blink of an eye. Still ashamed I ever worked for UT, knowing their policies after the disaster.
    Brand new ship with an unfamiliar " run " crew sailing into a major storm , is an undertaken that needs some thought. The consequences were severe with the loss of two vessels and all crews. I know the enquiry mentioned contaminated fuel but high on the list, to be considered, is displacement of lube oil levels in a gearbox, in a heavy roll, that can cause a loss of lube oil indication, and an automatic shut down blowing compressed air through fuel lines. It would take a day of stripping and bleeding oil to get such an incidence rectified and the engine restarted. In the SAR task there is a point when an extreme amount of courage and luck will be needed for a positive outcome. Occasionally it can be one chance to none as in this case. RIP. From experience we added slightly higher levels of gear box oil , after discussion with the box manufacturers, to mitigate engine shut downs, rolls of more than 23% degrees used to prompt alarms in monitoring systems.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 9th November 2020 at 10:23.

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  36. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Brand new ship with an unfamiliar " run " crew sailing into a major storm , is an undertaken that needs some thought. The consequences were severe with the loss of two vessels and all crews. I know the enquiry mentioned contaminated fuel but high on the list, to be considered, is displacement of lube oil levels in a gearbox, in a heavy roll, that can cause a loss of lube oil indication, and an automatic shut down blowing compressed air through fuel lines. It would take a day of stripping and bleeding oil to get such an incidence rectified and the engine restarted. In the SAR task there is a point when an extreme amount of courage and luck will be needed for a positive outcome. Occasionally it can be one chance to none as in this case. RIP. From experience we added slightly higher levels of gear box oil , after discussion with the box manufacturers, to mitigate engine shut downs, rolls of more than 23% degrees used to prompt alarms in monitoring systems.
    Combine that with the skipper bringing his family aboard on an unauthorised stop, his priorities changed. Alcohol was also a large issue, reports suggest the crew of the ship did not respond to instructions from the Solomon Browne.
    Having sailed on a sister ship less than 10 years later (a ship which had also lost its entire bridge due to being beam on to a large wave) it would not take much to put the engine out of action. The sound of the engine alarm going off during a rough passage still lives with my memories. UT (a Flag of Convenience company, based in Kent) had a woeful safety record, in the 4 months I was aboard they lost 6 crew due to accidents aboard ship. My own maritime career was cut short due to burns received while cargo handling. Thankfully they are no more.
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  38. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    This week from Nautical journals "Future Mine hunting system comes to CLYDE". It is a GRP style half decker which is equipped with side scan sonar and other tracking sensors to allow it map an area and detect the presence of UW ordnance or hazards. Although developmental with ATLAS Electronik on board it has reached Initial Operating Cabability ( IOC ) at HMNB CLYDE. It operates Crew on Board, Crew Ashore, or Autonomously. The boat is named RNMB HARRIER-Google for more information. The benefits might be many more units deployable for harbour, estuarine, river, or canal areas. Ships with ROV's and target destruction means may be still relevant for routes at sea.
    An attempt to future proof Defence and Security systems is discussed and outlined in General Nick Carter's paper on "The Integrated Operating Concept " and is worth a read. In future, and current, Naval developments we need to minimise illegal Cyper attacks on the ships overall operating system. Most modern ships now have an Integrated Bridge System, Integrated navigation system, and Integrated Combat System. These systems talk to each other and receive information over the ether by " widecast" routes. The systems so updated and informed is vulnerable to deliberate contamination of the overall system by strategic attacks on Satellite, electronic, and internet routes. Currently WINDOWS systems are deemed vulnerable. A review group has proposed that information needs to be protected by codes and dedicated passwords. All up and downloads to ships should be similar in routine to transactions on line to your bank. Carter feels the leaders in attacks within all ether space is the PLA. In the current climate of on-going under the counter global warefare we need to take guidance from allies and follow best practice now and in the future.

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  40. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    An attempt to future proof Defence and Security systems is discussed and outlined in General Nick Carter's paper on "The Integrated Operating Concept " and is worth a read. In future, and current, Naval developments we need to minimise illegal Cyper attacks on the ships overall operating system. Most modern ships now have an Integrated Bridge System, Integrated navigation system, and Integrated Combat System. These systems talk to each other and receive information over the ether by " widecast" routes. The systems so updated and informed is vulnerable to deliberate contamination of the overall system by strategic attacks on Satellite, electronic, and internet routes. Currently WINDOWS systems are deemed vulnerable. A review group has proposed that information needs to be protected by codes and dedicated passwords. All up and downloads to ships should be similar in routine to transactions on line to your bank. Carter feels the leaders in attacks within all ether space is the PLA. In the current climate of on-going under the counter global warefare we need to take guidance from allies and follow best practice now and in the future.
    In the second line above please delete Cyper and substitute CYBER. The overall problem is the constant change in the pipeline and the growing number of actors and providers. There is estimated to be 25 or so different systems outfits available to ships. An analysis of our security is apt at this time.

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