navy

[na grohmiti]

There is an evident weakness in the Surface picture as it requires the active co-operation of the traffic in your area of observation. The Safhaven Marine video recently of the grounded MV Alta, starting to break-up in stormy wave action, shows that for more than a week, we were unaware of a drifting ,unlit vessel, off our coast. Any other vessel could have run full tilt into the derelict with major consequences. VTS with radar or MPA's with tracking and analysis could have spotted her before grounding.
I accept that the USCG and RN are also culpable for allowing her to become derelict and later continuing to remain derelict. Our Surface picture is not interactive enough as we are missing surface scan by radar.

Could the proposed installation of floating wind turbines off the SW coast provide a platform for Radar, extending our view off our most exposed, busy but remote coast? It's a shame that with the demise of Kinsale Alpha and Bravo we lose an AIS receiver.

[ancientmariner]

Could the proposed installation of floating wind turbines off the SW coast provide a platform for Radar, extending our view off our most exposed, busy but remote coast? It's a shame that with the demise of Kinsale Alpha and Bravo we lose an AIS receiver.

Offshore wind turbines are a whole new area of development. They are fixed in water of less than 60metres depth but require a triple legged foundation instead of a mono pole type. Over 60 metres they are floating on anchors with certain vulnerabilities. The latter will require positional monitoring equipment in case of storm or collision movement. VTS radar could be installed on headlands with central monitoring stations per coastal sector. The French coast from Le Havre to the Spanish Coast is covered by coastal radar. If the radar at Roches point was operating it would have picked up ALTA.

[DeV]

Wind turbines also can have a negative effect on radar

[ancientmariner]

Wind turbines also can have a negative effect on radar

Most likely and more so on anchored platforms with blades on a horizontal axis to reduce windage plus the effects of platform oscillations.

[ancientmariner]

There is an evident weakness in the Surface picture as it requires the active co-operation of the traffic in your area of observation. The Safhaven Marine video recently of the grounded MV Alta, starting to break-up in stormy wave action, shows that for more than a week, we were unaware of a drifting ,unlit vessel, off our coast. Any other vessel could have run full tilt into the derelict with major consequences. VTS with radar or MPA's with tracking and analysis could have spotted her before grounding.
I accept that the USCG and RN are also culpable for allowing her to become derelict and later continuing to remain derelict. Our Surface picture is not interactive enough as we are missing surface scan by radar.

The Marine Casualty Investigation Branch (MCIB) wants" a working group to explore the risks and potential costs to the State presented by derelict ships entering Irish waters and coming ashore in Ireland. it should make proposals for means to identify, track, monitor and interdict derelict ships before they endanger other ships and seafarers". It also struck me that the Irish Lights Commissioners had a Surface scan radar at the look out at Roches Point which was discontinued when they de-manned and sold the house to a retired mariner. I know it is fortuitous, but that radar would have seen ALTA. We definitely need better surveillance and strict speed and course monitoring of all surface vessels and query those not underway as to condition.

[ibenji]

The Marine Casualty Investigation Branch (MCIB) wants" a working group to explore the risks and potential costs to the State presented by derelict ships entering Irish waters and coming ashore in Ireland. it should make proposals for means to identify, track, monitor and interdict derelict ships before they endanger other ships and seafarers". It also struck me that the Irish Lights Commissioners had a Surface scan radar at the look out at Roches Point which was discontinued when they de-manned and sold the house to a retired mariner. I know it is fortuitous, but that radar would have seen ALTA. We definitely need better surveillance and strict speed and course monitoring of all surface vessels and query those not underway as to condition.

I have being liaising with MCIB for the last 2 years in relation to an accident and I have never met a more incompetent statutory authority in this country. 2 of the 5 part time board members have had to resign due to conflict of interest. The state had so much time to respond to this derelict ship but instead of reacting to the threat, they just sat back and watched. Appalling reaction to a clear environmental threat.

[TangoSierra]

For anyone interested in the MCIB, this is of interest. Enlightening reading.

Shows the complete and utter failure of government to govern properly and abide by EU Legislation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport
General Scheme of the Merchant Shipping (Investigation of Marine Casualties) (Amendment) Bill 2020: Discussion

https://www.kildarestreet.com/commit...83&s=MCIB#g789

Mr. Michael Kingston:

The first thing I would say is that we do not need another review. We already have the 1998 review, which was clear in its recommendations on what is needed. We need an independent investigative unit with competence. For whatever reason, the end of the 1998 report went against itself. It was clear following the Betelgeuse tragedy in 1979 that we needed to decouple the regulator from the investigation system.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
As outlined in my letter of 19 January 2021, I consider that the time is now opportune to undertake a fundamental review of the structures in place for marine accident investigations. This review will be carried out by an independent expert and concluded over the coming months.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
I recognise and respect the Minister's point on the review, but those of us who have had the honour and privilege to serve around these Houses for a number of years are well used to departmental speak. I am not accusing the Minister of it at all; he is new to this Department. Departmental speak when it relates to a review is, effectively, the long finger and to move on.

[ancientmariner]

I have being liaising with MCIB for the last 2 years in relation to an accident and I have never met a more incompetent statutory authority in this country. 2 of the 5 part time board members have had to resign due to conflict of interest. The state had so much time to respond to this derelict ship but instead of reacting to the threat, they just sat back and watched. Appalling reaction to a clear environmental threat.

Don't know about composition or otherwise of MCIB. Our National response was negative as we didn't know it was there for more than a week, drifting in shipping lanes, until it turned up on our doorstep, courtesy of the USCG and RN. For more than a year that vessel was towable having weathered a hurricane and Storm Denis. Some effort should have been triggered to find her and remove her .

[TangoSierra]

Don't know about composition or otherwise of MCIB. Our National response was negative as we didn't know it was there for more than a week, drifting in shipping lanes, until it turned up on our doorstep, courtesy of the USCG and RN. For more than a year that vessel was towable having weathered a hurricane and Storm Denis. Some effort should have been triggered to find her and remove her .

MV ALTA was possibly detected on the 13FEB, 14FEB, 15FEB and obviously confirmed detection on the 16FEB by several sensors available to Ireland through the EU and commercial operators.

Just no one was looking at the screen and investigating the possible detections.

Here's what a 80m vessel looks like on 14FEB2020

Attachment 8891

Here's what MV ALTA looks like on the rocks at Ballycotton on 17FEB20

MV ALTA Sentinel-1 17FEB20.JPG

[ancientmariner]

MV ALTA was possibly detected on the 13FEB, 14FEB, 15FEB and obviously confirmed detection on the 16FEB by several sensors available to Ireland through the EU and commercial operators.

Just no one was looking at the screen and investigating the possible detections.

Here's what a 80m vessel looks like on 14FEB2020

Attachment 8891

Here's what MV ALTA looks like on the rocks at Ballycotton on 17FEB20

MV ALTA Sentinel-1 17FEB20.JPG

The only way Alta could have been detected was by visual or radar tracking. She was a "Dead" ship electronically , so without visual report or coastal radar, or a tracking ship radar, she remained missing until she went ashore.

[spider]

Don't know about composition or otherwise of MCIB. Our National response was negative as we didn't know it was there for more than a week, drifting in shipping lanes, until it turned up on our doorstep, courtesy of the USCG and RN. For more than a year that vessel was towable having weathered a hurricane and Storm Denis. Some effort should have been triggered to find her and remove her .

And this refers back to my earlier question ref the legalities around sinking this vessel.

As far as I know both the RN and USCG, having come across this vessel, reported its position and the fact that it was adrift, in international waters.

What else where they to do; more specifically what else were they obliged to do?

Board it and take it in tow?

Is it a legal requirement of a ships Captain, going about his lawful business and coming across a situation like this to resolve it?

Or report it and continue on with your passage?

[DeV]

The only way Alta could have been detected was by visual or radar tracking. She was a "Dead" ship electronically , so without visual report or coastal radar, or a tracking ship radar, she remained missing until she went ashore.

http://www.emsa.europa.eu/copernicus...7/2880/23.html

Could be an option

[na grohmiti]

http://www.emsa.europa.eu/copernicus...7/2880/23.html

Could be an option

Not really in this case. It's not an active system. You have to analyse large patches of the surface of the earth to try and find what you are looking for, assuming you know roughly where it is.
However you can set alarms on radar to alert an operator when a target enters specific zones.

[ancientmariner]

http://www.emsa.europa.eu/copernicus...7/2880/23.html

Could be an option

Copernicus Satellite system is geared towards identifying aberrations in large areas of the Earths sea surface such as coral bleaching, algae blooms, pollution all covering many square kilometers. A while ago Efforts were made to try and find a derelict cruise ship, fronted by the ICG Dublin, using Satellite information. Nothing was found, but critically they new a ship was missing in a certain area, and as nothing was found they assumed it must have foundered. You cannot translate those actions in to a system that could track and identify all ships by satellite. Ideally the USCG could have put a tracker on ALTA and find her later after the hurricane had passed. The RN could have taken a minimalist danger approach and sunk her or sought permission to sink her.

[spider]

The RN could have taken a minimalist danger approach and sunk her or sought permission to sink her.

Except that the ship which came across her was an unarmed (except 7.62 machine guns) Antarctic Survey vessel...not a warship...HMS Protector...and as another poster has pointed out they had no legal grounds to do so.

Lets be realistic here and apportion the 'blame'...if indeed there is any...where it belongs.

With those responsible for the territorial waters in which this hulk came ashore.

Had it drifted a couple of hundred miles further north it would have hit the west coast of Scotland...

Again I ask the question...did the RN or USCG break the law / maritime protocol by reporting this vessel adrift and going on about their lawful business?

I suspect not but genuinely interested because maritime law is complex...

[ancientmariner]

Except that the ship which came across her was an unarmed (except 7.62 machine guns) Antarctic Survey vessel...not a warship...HMS Protector...and as another poster has pointed out they had no legal grounds to do so.

Lets be realistic here and apportion the 'blame'...if indeed there is any...where it belongs.

With those responsible for the territorial waters in which this hulk came ashore.

Had it drifted a couple of hundred miles further north it would have hit the west coast of Scotland...

Again I ask the question...did the RN or USCG break the law / maritime protocol by reporting this vessel adrift and going on about their lawful business?

I suspect not but genuinely interested because maritime law is complex...

The ALTA was voluntarily abandoned, albeit because US rescuers wanted to remove the crew to safety before an imminent hurricane struck. Some months later an RN ship came across the drifter and could be the FIRST contact and now possible owner of the wreck. Solution-consult with legals , possibly go on board and open sea valves. When she came ashore in Ireland after a year she becomes the property of the STATE through the Receiver of Wrecks. Our problem is we ignore the sea and its vagaries until it bites us.

[spider]

The ALTA was voluntarily abandoned, albeit because US rescuers wanted to remove the crew to safety before an imminent hurricane struck. Some months later an RN ship came across the drifter and could be the FIRST contact and now possible owner of the wreck. Solution-consult with legals , possibly go on board and open sea valves. When she came ashore in Ireland after a year she becomes the property of the STATE through the Receiver of Wrecks. Our problem is we ignore the sea and its vagaries until it bites us.

I'm really sorry and with respect I'm going to disagree with you.

If I was a Commanding Officer, and there was no legal obligation upon me, there is no way I'd risk the health and safety of my crew by boarding and sinking an unstable, high-sided cargo vessel on the high seas, just because it might hit Ireland.

How were the crew of HMS Protector meant to board MV Alta and open her sea valves?

[ancientmariner]

I'm really sorry and with respect I'm going to disagree with you.

If I was a Commanding Officer, and there was no legal obligation upon me, there is no way I'd risk the health and safety of my crew by boarding and sinking an unstable, high-sided cargo vessel on the high seas, just because it might hit Ireland.

How were the crew of HMS Protector meant to board MV Alta and open her sea valves?

A derelict found at sea, is reportable, and a decision on it's fate is a priority. In this case an unlit object weighing more than a 1000 tonnes and a hazard to navigation. If they were told to leave it be, we can ask the Brits why.? Boarding can be done by helicopter or grapnel. When we sunk the tanker( half) South of Fastnet and the other part of the escort scarpered because of bad impending weather, some of the Naval crew went on board for a quick look around the Bridge. The other half was HM Frigate and ours was P20 with MRM.