navy

[Jetjock]

It seems to me that if the vessel was observed as you outlined it would have to be a visual or radar sighting. It also is clear that whatever system was used the users would have to know it was a ship previously observed by them. It would also be most likely a geo-stationary system looking at the same patch of ocean. If an entity knew it was there, why wasn't it reported as it was an obvious danger to surface traffic.

Doubtful geostationary as the periodical nature of the observations suggests an non-stationary orbit. Geostationary (35,786km) would be unusual for a surveillance satellite (~500km).

[ancientmariner]

Doubtful geostationary as the periodical nature of the observations suggests an non-stationary orbit. Geostationary (35,786km) would be unusual for a surveillance satellite (~500km).

An orbiting satellite that can spot a random target has to overcome many problems . Does it stay in daylight, chasing the sun, or does it have multispectral cameras. Can it overcome Cloud, haze, and heavy sea surface conditions. Maybe the manned satellite type is a possible candidate or one with an interactive sensor system and analytical software. How do Google do their aerial maps. However if someone "saw" ALTA why wasn't it reported?

[ancientmariner]

An orbiting satellite that can spot a random target has to overcome many problems . Does it stay in daylight, chasing the sun, or does it have multispectral cameras. Can it overcome Cloud, haze, and heavy sea surface conditions. Maybe the manned satellite type is a possible candidate or one with an interactive sensor system and analytical software. How do Google do their aerial maps. However if someone "saw" ALTA why wasn't it reported?

Just had a brief look at Google maps which is collected by terrestrial, aerial, and LANDSAT 8 in puts. The Latter is at 705km, Polar orbit, and pictures an area swath of about 180 square kilometres. Within that it may have some definition, not sure what that might be, ALTA is about 60m X 14m.

[TangoSierra]

The vessel was detected by Sentinel 1 Synthetic Aperture Radar (and other SAR satellite providers) and identified as a ship using the Ocean Objects Detection Machine Learning model within SNAP terminal (All open access to public after registration).

There are more powerful and refined systems available to EU member states authorities that are not available to the public. These combine several sensors and data sets to detect and in some cases classify and identify ships.

Again, MV ALTA was highly likely detected on three or more separate occasions. A rudimentary analysis using Drift/Leeway factors would have even predicted the course after the detection on the 10FEB20.

[na grohmiti]

The vessel was detected by Sentinel 1 Synthetic Aperture Radar (and other SAR satellite providers) and identified as a ship using the Ocean Objects Detection Machine Learning model within SNAP terminal (All open access to public after registration).

There are more powerful and refined systems available to EU member states authorities that are not available to the public. These combine several sensors and data sets to detect and in some cases classify and identify ships.

Again, MV ALTA was highly likely detected on three or more separate occasions. A rudimentary analysis using Drift/Leeway factors would have even predicted the course after the detection on the 10FEB20.

You assume it's someone's job to look. It should be Coast Guard, but they seem more focused on coordination of SAR than even passive monitoring of sea lanes, separation schemes or any of that. FMS in NHQ is not VMS. That's not their brief.
Things have been proposed over the years, but the will is not there.

[TangoSierra]

There is an evident weakness in the Surface picture as it requires the active co-operation of the traffic in your area of observation. The Safhaven Marine video recently of the grounded MV Alta, starting to break-up in stormy wave action, shows that for more than a week, we were unaware of a drifting ,unlit vessel, off our coast. Any other vessel could have run full tilt into the derelict with major consequences. VTS with radar or MPA's with tracking and analysis could have spotted her before grounding.
I accept that the USCG and RN are also culpable for allowing her to become derelict and later continuing to remain derelict. Our Surface picture is not interactive enough as we are missing surface scan by radar.

MODS: Any chance of breaking posts about MV ALTA out of the navy thread onto its own thread combined with the NEWS report of MCIB investigation please?

[TangoSierra]

You assume it's someone's job to look. It should be Coast Guard, but they seem more focused on coordination of SAR than even passive monitoring of sea lanes, separation schemes or any of that. FMS in NHQ is not VMS. That's not their brief.
Things have been proposed over the years, but the will is not there.

https://debatesarchive.oireachtas.ie...0114#WRMM03100
Departmental Reports
676. Deputy Catherine Connolly Information on Catherine Connolly Zoom on Catherine Connolly asked the Minister for Defence Information on Simon Coveney Zoom on Simon Coveney if a report was undertaken in relation to the surveillance operation of a ship (details supplied) blown on to the coast of County Cork in February 2020; if not, his plans to undertake such a report; if so, if he will provide a copy of the report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32582/20]

Minister for Defence (Deputy Simon Coveney): Information on Simon Coveney Zoom on Simon Coveney The Irish Coast Guard has overall responsibility for Ireland's system of marine communications and surveillance in Ireland's Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

I understand that the Marine Casualty Investigation Board, which is a statutory independent body, is carrying out an investigation into the grounding of the vessel in Cork earlier this year.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/m...-40237166.html

The MCIB said the ship was stateless, abandoned and unpowered with no operational automatic identification system that could have alerted the Irish authorities to the drifting vessel.

It said the Irish Coast Guard and Naval Service were unable to identify the ship’s position or identity as it approached Irish waters due to the lack of an active on-board tracking system.

Both the IRCG and the NS have access to systems that can and highly likely did detect MV ALTA. The Minister stated that the IRCG have overall responsibility for Irelands system of marine surveillance.

This is a shining example of how Ireland as a EU State cannot get its act together in relation to the sea between all its various government arms and agencies.

[TangoSierra]

You assume it's someone's job to look. It should be Coast Guard, but they seem more focused on coordination of SAR than even passive monitoring of sea lanes, separation schemes or any of that. FMS in NHQ is not VMS. That's not their brief.
Things have been proposed over the years, but the will is not there.

MV ALTA potentially came within 15nm of Kinsale Gas Rigs doing approximately 1.5kts. I reckon if she had hit, it would have brought about some SAR coordination.

https://www.mcib.ie/reports.7.html?r=273

4.8 Other earth observation services such as the European Maritime Safety Agency, (EMSA) ‘CleanSeaNet’ and ‘Copernicus Maritime Surveillance’ services routinely collect satellite imagery over the oceans. However, imagery resolution data from the satellite is insufficient to randomly scan the sea surface to detect and identify a derelict. The satellites with high enough resolution only make images on demand or of particular areas. Earth Observation Services are not enabled for detection of derelicts such as the ‘MV Alta'

This paragraph of the MCIB report is concerning. The imagery resolution data from the satellite was sufficient to detect a dark vessel 77 meters long on 10FEB20. The data and detection event would have been available no later than 6 hours after acquisition.

[Jetjock]

MV ALTA potentially came within 15nm of Kinsale Gas Rigs doing approximately 1.5kts. I reckon if she had hit, it would have brought about some SAR coordination.

https://www.mcib.ie/reports.7.html?r=273

This paragraph of the MCIB report is concerning. The imagery resolution data from the satellite was sufficient to detect a dark vessel 77 meters long on 10FEB20. The data and detection event would have been available no later than 6 hours after acquisition.

Is it possible that given this vessel is significantly larger than the expected profile of a drug smuggling boat, it was ignored and not cross referenced against AIS data?

[ancientmariner]

Is it possible that given this vessel is significantly larger than the expected profile of a drug smuggling boat, it was ignored and not cross referenced against AIS data?

It is clear to me that any early detection of MV ALTA, by means available and provided by the State, or any other agency, was just not possible. The ship was dead as a kipper and could not provide AIS returns or LRIT signals. We are on the approaches to Europe and Celtic and Irish seas yet we have NO VTS surveillance system. The ALTA without such coastal systems could only be seen by Mark 1 eyeball or a ships radar with an astute observer noting that the ship was stopped and maybe needed investigation. You cannot ignore something that you haven't seen and are unaware of it's presence.

[Jetjock]

It is clear to me that any early detection of MV ALTA, by means available and provided by the State, or any other agency, was just not possible. The ship was dead as a kipper and could not provide AIS returns or LRIT signals. We are on the approaches to Europe and Celtic and Irish seas yet we have NO VTS surveillance system. The ALTA without such coastal systems could only be seen by Mark 1 eyeball or a ships radar with an astute observer noting that the ship was stopped and maybe needed investigation. You cannot ignore something that you haven't seen and are unaware of it's presence.

I'm sorry I should have been clearer. Given that the Alta was detected by satellite and the information was available to the relevant authority here, the vessel, being "dead as a kipper" should have been conspicuous by the lack of AIS data. So either the satellite data is unmonitored (possibly unless intelligence led) or the ship was dismissed as being of interest given it's dimensions.

[ancientmariner]

I'm sorry I should have been clearer. Given that the Alta was detected by satellite and the information was available to the relevant authority here, the vessel, being "dead as a kipper" should have been conspicuous by the lack of AIS data. So either the satellite data is unmonitored (possibly unless intelligence led) or the ship was dismissed as being of interest given it's dimensions.

The question now is , by whom was the vessel detected, to whom was the information passed. If there is an ongoing attempt to Hawk Eye the western approaches then matters are being monitored but are they being processed to reduce danger to unaware surface traffic. The whole thing is bizarre.

[TangoSierra]

Is it possible that given this vessel is significantly larger than the expected profile of a drug smuggling boat, it was ignored and not cross referenced against AIS data?

I'm sorry I should have been clearer. Given that the Alta was detected by satellite and the information was available to the relevant authority here, the vessel, being "dead as a kipper" should have been conspicuous by the lack of AIS data. So either the satellite data is unmonitored (possibly unless intelligence led) or the ship was dismissed as being of interest given it's dimensions.

There is no expected profile of a drug smuggling boat. They come in all sizes from super tankers to rowing boats to semi-submersibles.

A "dark vessel" of 80m length detected by Remote Sensing SAR on several occasions in the middle of Storm Denis with no correlating AIS, VMS, LRIT or electronic signature SHOULD have raised more than an eyebrow. (set off klaxons and strobe lights).

From a Fisheries perspective, it could have been a large fishing vessel trawling under illegal, unregulated and unreported (IUU) fishing conditions using the storm as cover.
From a Coast Guard perspective, it could have been a coastal freighter/tanker having suffered total electrical failure and crew incapacitation (gas, explosion, etc. etc.) due to the storm.
From a Customs/Gardai/Naval perspective, it could have been a trans-oceanic vessel transporting something that did not want the authorities to know about (drugs, slaves, nuclear waste, etc etc)

Sensors are a two way street for intelligence. Sensors can confirm/refute existing intelligence or can start the initiation of building an intelligence picture.

The detections by SAR on 10FEB2020, 14FEB2020, 15FEB2020 SHOULD have started the cycle.

Most likely scenario is that no-one was watching.

The agency responsible does not want to be responsible and does not have the personnel or the platforms.
The agency that wants responsibility is not being given it and also does not have the personnel.

This is even though Ireland has access to state of the art multi-million euro per year remote sensing with resolutions as high as 0.5m, with the option to task satellites to specific areas on request in less than 4hrs.
All it takes is a phone call and an online form to be filled in.

something something Sea Blindness - Empire building something something

[ancientmariner]

There is no expected profile of a drug smuggling boat. They come in all sizes from super tankers to rowing boats to semi-submersibles.

A "dark vessel" of 80m length detected by Remote Sensing SAR on several occasions in the middle of Storm Denis with no correlating AIS, VMS, LRIT or electronic signature SHOULD have raised more than an eyebrow. (set off klaxons and strobe lights).

From a Fisheries perspective, it could have been a large fishing vessel trawling under illegal, unregulated and unreported (IUU) fishing conditions using the storm as cover.
From a Coast Guard perspective, it could have been a coastal freighter/tanker having suffered total electrical failure and crew incapacitation (gas, explosion, etc. etc.) due to the storm.
From a Customs/Gardai/Naval perspective, it could have been a trans-oceanic vessel transporting something that did not want the authorities to know about (drugs, slaves, nuclear waste, etc etc)

Sensors are a two way street for intelligence. Sensors can confirm/refute existing intelligence or can start the initiation of building an intelligence picture.

The detections by SAR on 10FEB2020, 14FEB2020, 15FEB2020 SHOULD have started the cycle.

Most likely scenario is that no-one was watching.

The agency responsible does not want to be responsible and does not have the personnel or the platforms.
The agency that wants responsibility is not being given it and also does not have the personnel.

This is even though Ireland has access to state of the art multi-million euro per year remote sensing with resolutions as high as 0.5m, with the option to task satellites to specific areas on request in less than 4hrs.
All it takes is a phone call and an online form to be filled in.

something something Sea Blindness - Empire building something something

There is an amount of data mentioned in your post for 3 dates in February 2020 before ALTA went aground. The organisation that "saw" the data will have a data storage system at least that's what AIRBUS surveillance and Collection ATLAS state about their systems. Let us buy that information for analysis.

[TangoSierra]

There is an amount of data mentioned in your post for 3 dates in February 2020 before ALTA went aground. The organisation that "saw" the data will have a data storage system at least that's what AIRBUS surveillance and Collection ATLAS state about their systems. Let us buy that information for analysis.

Ireland does not need to buy the data. It is provided free of charge for being an EU member state (i.e we pay into the EU, this is one of the services in return)