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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    An attempt to future proof Defence and Security systems is discussed and outlined in General Nick Carter's paper on "The Integrated Operating Concept " and is worth a read. In future, and current, Naval developments we need to minimise illegal Cyper attacks on the ships overall operating system. Most modern ships now have an Integrated Bridge System, Integrated navigation system, and Integrated Combat System. These systems talk to each other and receive information over the ether by " widecast" routes. The systems so updated and informed is vulnerable to deliberate contamination of the overall system by strategic attacks on Satellite, electronic, and internet routes. Currently WINDOWS systems are deemed vulnerable. A review group has proposed that information needs to be protected by codes and dedicated passwords. All up and downloads to ships should be similar in routine to transactions on line to your bank. Carter feels the leaders in attacks within all ether space is the PLA. In the current climate of on-going under the counter global warefare we need to take guidance from allies and follow best practice now and in the future.
    In the second line above please delete Cyper and substitute CYBER. The overall problem is the constant change in the pipeline and the growing number of actors and providers. There is estimated to be 25 or so different systems outfits available to ships. An analysis of our security is apt at this time.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In the second line above please delete Cyper and substitute CYBER. The overall problem is the constant change in the pipeline and the growing number of actors and providers. There is estimated to be 25 or so different systems outfits available to ships. An analysis of our security is apt at this time.
    One of the problems with buying off the shelf electronic navaids and engineering management systems, is you have no control over what eavesdropping software is built in. Some is straightforward, storing user information and experience as a means to improve subsequent versions. These can be manipulated by those with ill intent. Some are designed from the outset to have eavesdropping software built in for nefarious purposes. Huawei are widely suspected to have engaged in this practice in their phones, and they are currently assisting ESB networks in rolling out the new broadband network in Ireland. I have to say I was surprised when one of their Technicians knocked on my door. Clearly Chinese, perfect english.
    When the Sincgars was introduced, we knew from the outset that the only ones who could listen in were, those on the same net, or the US military, who had permitted us to use certain features of their equipment.
    From a cyber point of view, as always, once you isolate software from external networks, you maintain some level of security. However software updates and upgrades necessitate connecting to the mother ship, electronically. This leaves all other connected systems also open to eavesdropping.
    And then to top it off, you have crew members using social media, which 30 years ago was the dream of intel gatherers. Storis of US servicemen using Garmin watches to map their runs, within area 51, generating fantasting up to date maps for those who wanted them.
    During the Falklands Conflict almost 40 years ago, the RN headed south more or less in Radio Silence. Comms to Whitehall came via telex. Ship to ship signalling was done by VS only. And this was before the days of electronic snooping. The only way you could intercept a VS message was if you were standing between sender and receiver.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  4. #178
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    Not forgetting GPS can be turned off by the US, jammed or spoofed

    Remember the Stuxnet worm? Specifically designed to target Siemens made PLUs and introduced to an Iranian nuclear reactor via a USB key

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  6. #179
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    The think about Cyber is it doesn’t have to be a sophisticated NSA, Cyber Force, etc etc State actor that causes the compromise. It could be a white hat (someone who does no harm but penetrates the system just so that they can do it (to them self or others) or a black hat (intend on harm). It could be a group of hackers, a lone wolf or a disgruntled employee (either in the software provider or your own company/force).

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  8. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The think about Cyber is it doesn’t have to be a sophisticated NSA, Cyber Force, etc etc State actor that causes the compromise. It could be a white hat (someone who does no harm but penetrates the system just so that they can do it (to them self or others) or a black hat (intend on harm). It could be a group of hackers, a lone wolf or a disgruntled employee (either in the software provider or your own company/force).
    My first introduction to automated chart systems, whereby charts were updated by an Admiralty CD, was about 1992. They were the old rasterscan charts provided by the Admiralty known as the ARCS system. The navigator loaded his own corrections which for want of a better description reprinted as new all charts registered to the ship and known to Chart Agent. Military vessels and systems at the time also used a system known as Link 11. It allowed units, including units in dynamic situations, to interchange operational information. The current free to air cannot be secure unless some way is found to control inputs, corral them, classify them, and reject trash.

  9. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    My first introduction to automated chart systems, whereby charts were updated by an Admiralty CD, was about 1992. They were the old rasterscan charts provided by the Admiralty known as the ARCS system. The navigator loaded his own corrections which for want of a better description reprinted as new all charts registered to the ship and known to Chart Agent. Military vessels and systems at the time also used a system known as Link 11. It allowed units, including units in dynamic situations, to interchange operational information. The current free to air cannot be secure unless some way is found to control inputs, corral them, classify them, and reject trash.
    Call me old fashioned but I still prefer a paper backup showing all chart corrections since chart was issued. Even an electronic backup of same, with active notices to mariners etc.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  12. #183
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    Given that the head of MAOC is M. Sullivan an irish ex-Garda, and that Ireland has a history of successful interdictions on drugs and arms, we are most likely to be asked by his organisation to act more in the surveillance role to deter use of subsurface means of smuggling. It is something that we say we do, however to be effective it needs to be more sustained and continuous, much as the inputs by the US and Brits, and maybe Dutch, in Caribbean area patrols by surface units and helicopters, where cigarette boats and submersibles are in regular use. Possibly we need to increase the size of patrol area by the MPA's to increase first contacts of illegal activity and brush up our ASW.

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  14. #184
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    The term "narco-sub" is misleading. It isn't a sub, it is more like a cigarette boat, with a tiny surface profile from the helm cockpit. The remainder of the hull remains below the surface. The vessel leaves a considerable wake, not to mention engine and exhaust IR signature.

    The Key to monitoring and detection is from the air, either from Long Range MPA with high end electro optics, Ship based helis or UAV with the same optics.
    But you have to be there first.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  16. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The term "narco-sub" is misleading. It isn't a sub, it is more like a cigarette boat, with a tiny surface profile from the helm cockpit. The remainder of the hull remains below the surface. The vessel leaves a considerable wake, not to mention engine and exhaust IR signature.

    The Key to monitoring and detection is from the air, either from Long Range MPA with high end electro optics, Ship based helis or UAV with the same optics.
    But you have to be there first.
    It is a description for a craft with minimal freeboard and is semi-submersed consequentially. This one had a crew of 3, of which 2 Ecuadorians were captured and one absconded free. The vessel is about 68feet long and 7 feet wide in the amidships. They were 20 days at sea and couldn't transfer the loot due to sea conditions. The conundrum is, based on 2000m range, how did its voyage begin, was it initially towed by another vessel, did it enter another port with a mother ship, to prepare the boat and its crew for the final approach to Spain. Given the Industry might and value in many billions, we can expect more of the same. The cartels could afford to build or buy a real submarine, the only difficulty is putting together an experienced crew. Money won't be a drawback for further attempts.

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  18. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It is a description for a craft with minimal freeboard and is semi-submersed consequentially. This one had a crew of 3, of which 2 Ecuadorians were captured and one absconded free. The vessel is about 68feet long and 7 feet wide in the amidships. They were 20 days at sea and couldn't transfer the loot due to sea conditions. The conundrum is, based on 2000m range, how did its voyage begin, was it initially towed by another vessel, did it enter another port with a mother ship, to prepare the boat and its crew for the final approach to Spain. Given the Industry might and value in many billions, we can expect more of the same. The cartels could afford to build or buy a real submarine, the only difficulty is putting together an experienced crew. Money won't be a drawback for further attempts.
    There have been some "true" submarines found already but it is not known if any have entered service. What is clear that it is not too difficult to build them, even in Europe some people have built them in their back yards. As for experienced crews that should not be an issue, Columbia, Venezuela, Peru and Ecuador all have submarines in their navies so buying a crew is possible.

  19. #187
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    The South American’s manage to build them in the middle of the Jungle

    https://youtu.be/yqYoif-9c64

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  21. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The South American’s manage to build them in the middle of the Jungle

    https://youtu.be/yqYoif-9c64
    Well done. An Oscar for that one.

  22. #189
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    accept no substitute:
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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  24. #190
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    This looks like a useful upgrade to the P60s, should the will be there. I know the mast is already designed to take an air search radar, 4D would be a huge improvement.
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de...0-Brochure.pdf

    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  26. #191
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    [QUOTE=na grohmiti;482200]This looks like a useful upgrade to the P60s, should the will be there. I know the mast is already designed to take an air search radar, 4D would be a huge improvement.
    https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/de...0-Brochure.pdf

    I think we certainly should advance our technology to do the things expected of us. Electronic Scanned Array radars are a good aid and certainly should be fitted on the MRV as a defensive measure coupled with modern CIWS elements. A refit to p60's should be considered. Do we have an attendance at Naval Industry Shows. Can anyone confirm that P51 is again heading for drydock?

  27. #192
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    [ancientmariner

    I think we certainly should advance our technology to do the things expected of us. Electronic Scanned Array radars are a good aid and certainly should be fitted on the MRV as a defensive measure coupled with modern CIWS elements. A refit to p60's should be considered. Do we have an attendance at Naval Industry Shows. Can anyone confirm that P51 is again heading for drydock?[/QUOTE]

    On World navy News there is a piece on the delivery of the first of 8 x 15m Officer training craft for the RN. The delivery was from Atlas Electronik UK.
    The Aeuk design features a 13 person workspace with PC work stations and shock mitigation seating. There is a briefing area with screen for displaying charts and navigation data. There is a recreational area, IMO navigation suite compatible with RN surface fleet. Berths , wet room, heads, comprehensive galley improves operational range and capability. The boat can be used in a various range of modes to meet specific requirements. Very useable for both School and reserve training. Safhaven Youghal have some connect with Atlas Electronik.

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  29. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    [ancientmariner

    I think we certainly should advance our technology to do the things expected of us. Electronic Scanned Array radars are a good aid and certainly should be fitted on the MRV as a defensive measure coupled with modern CIWS elements. A refit to p60's should be considered. Do we have an attendance at Naval Industry Shows. Can anyone confirm that P51 is again heading for drydock?
    On World navy News there is a piece on the delivery of the first of 8 x 15m Officer training craft for the RN. The delivery was from Atlas Electronik UK.
    The Aeuk design features a 13 person workspace with PC work stations and shock mitigation seating. There is a briefing area with screen for displaying charts and navigation data. There is a recreational area, IMO navigation suite compatible with RN surface fleet. Berths , wet room, heads, comprehensive galley improves operational range and capability. The boat can be used in a various range of modes to meet specific requirements. Very useable for both School and reserve training. Safhaven Youghal have some connect with Atlas Electronik.[/QUOTE]

    At this stage the UK Shipbuilding Yards have built an evolving class of OPV vessels for both home use and for export. The trend has been to make later "Batches" more warship to fill the duties of local intervention. Think Defence.co.uk have an interesting paper by an Engineer K. Campbell on " Some thoughts on the Batch2 River Class" It is possible several of the enhancements are already included in our P60 class. The points to note are the Flight Deck and weight of a range of helicopters to be accommodated have a significant requirement for provision of necessary Hull strength. I don't agree with him that moving from 2 x 25mm guns to 2 x MK.44 Gatling 7.62mm guns is defensively sufficient. He mentions that our 76mm gun is only a Fishery deterrent and implies it is short of what is needed to meet possible aspirations. In passing our MRV armament and Defence suite needs early consideration. The typical combat logs ships have 2x CIWS, 2x 25/30mm, several HMG/LMG guns, a missile fitted for system, and all necessary CMS and Wide Area Search systems.

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  31. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post

    I think we certainly should advance our technology to do the things expected of us. Electronic Scanned Array radars are a good aid and certainly should be fitted on the MRV as a defensive measure coupled with modern CIWS elements. A refit to p60's should be considered. Do we have an attendance at Naval Industry Shows. Can anyone confirm that P51 is again heading for drydock?
    One of the P60s went to an arms show and the left went mad

    On World navy News there is a piece on the delivery of the first of 8 x 15m Officer training craft for the RN. The delivery was from Atlas Electronik UK.
    The Aeuk design features a 13 person workspace with PC work stations and shock mitigation seating. There is a briefing area with screen for displaying charts and navigation data. There is a recreational area, IMO navigation suite compatible with RN surface fleet. Berths , wet room, heads, comprehensive galley improves operational range and capability. The boat can be used in a various range of modes to meet specific requirements. Very useable for both School and reserve training. Safhaven Youghal have some connect with Atlas Electronik.
    But of little use for anything but training

    https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/new...oyal-navy.html



    At this stage the UK Shipbuilding Yards have built an evolving class of OPV vessels for both home use and for export. The trend has been to make later "Batches" more warship to fill the duties of local intervention. Think Defence.co.uk have an interesting paper by an Engineer K. Campbell on " Some thoughts on the Batch2 River Class" It is possible several of the enhancements are already included in our P60 class. The points to note are the Flight Deck and weight of a range of helicopters to be accommodated have a significant requirement for provision of necessary Hull strength. I don't agree with him that moving from 2 x 25mm guns to 2 x MK.44 Gatling 7.62mm guns is defensively sufficient. He mentions that our 76mm gun is only a Fishery deterrent and implies it is short of what is needed to meet possible aspirations. In passing our MRV armament and Defence suite needs early consideration. The typical combat logs ships have 2x CIWS, 2x 25/30mm, several HMG/LMG guns, a missile fitted for system, and all necessary CMS and Wide Area Search systems.
    https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/...2-river-class/

  32. #195
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    On a slightly related note, the RN is planning to upgrade its Legacy 20mm Oerlikon/GAM-B01, GCM-AO3 Twin 30mm and Oerlikon 30mm cannon to 30mm Chain gun on the DS30M mk 2 platform, as seen on the more recent River Batch 2s. This uses the 30MM Mk 44 Bushmaster cannon, which is in use elsewhere in the Irish Defence Forces. Perhaps we could consider similar when it's time for the Rhino to go? Seems suitable given where the Rhino are currently mounted on the P50s and P60s.
    https://www.navylookout.com/the-all-...-gun-in-focus/
    Also, the Dutch Navy are to retire the Goalkeeper CIWS from service by 2025, replacing it with RIM116 RAM combined with DART guided projectile fired from an OTO Melara 76mm.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  34. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    On a slightly related note, the RN is planning to upgrade its Legacy 20mm Oerlikon/GAM-B01, GCM-AO3 Twin 30mm and Oerlikon 30mm cannon to 30mm Chain gun on the DS30M mk 2 platform, as seen on the more recent River Batch 2s. This uses the 30MM Mk 44 Bushmaster cannon, which is in use elsewhere in the Irish Defence Forces. Perhaps we could consider similar when it's time for the Rhino to go? Seems suitable given where the Rhino are currently mounted on the P50s and P60s.
    https://www.navylookout.com/the-all-...-gun-in-focus/
    Also, the Dutch Navy are to retire the Goalkeeper CIWS from service by 2025, replacing it with RIM116 RAM combined with DART guided projectile fired from an OTO Melara 76mm.
    Much bigger and heavier foot print I’d say

  35. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Much bigger and heavier foot print I’d say
    No more so than any automated replacement, and HPT will tell stories about the force on the deck of the old Oerlikon 20mm. It's mounted on GRP minehunters and patrol vessels so it should be fine....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  36. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Much bigger and heavier foot print I’d say
    In general the deck takes the weight of the gun and its mounting. Ship decks are immensely strong taking the weights of all superstructure, boats, cranes, masts, casings etc. The bigger the weapon the larger, in spread, the bolt on gun ring/foundation. local strength can be added. The weapon discharge forces are allowed for within the gun mechanisms such as recoil and absorption design. The bigger problem for any upgrading , renewal, or replacement is bringing it from concept to implementation. The problem is trying to identify the Boss/ policy maker with speedy decision making for timely responses. We drag on, and on occasion roles get reversed, and big ticket items appear due to a politically driven imperative producing role changing ships and aircraft. To be honest we are a PDF of circumstances and with circumstances constantly changing, we lose sight of the role of any Defence Forces , and struggle to meet contingencies from a depleted locker of minimised responses. If the role is catered for adequately then response for all contingences becomes routine.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 22nd January 2021 at 11:11.

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  38. #199
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    [QUOTE=DeV;484452]One of the P60s went to an arms show and the left went mad



    But of little use for anything but training

    https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/new...oyal-navy.html


    More than 80% of sea training and ship system and characteristics training HAS to be carried out at sea. Initial training should be carried out on vessels designed for taking a bit of rough handling. All of our training is carried out on ships of high value. There is a burden placed on the shoulders of first time Captains that could be ameliorated by having smaller workhorse vessels to practice on. Other European Navies have scores of smaller craft for training and local tasking giving opportunity for step by step training, while we have NO training craft. I hope the point is taken up by the COD and the historic destruction of skills lost in ASW, MCM, FDO, HCO, and other specialisations cast away as ships come and go.

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