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  1. #1
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    navy

    what kind of guns for the new ships for irish navy will they go down the lines of more 76mm . or can we see more in lines of defence ...

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    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I'd say 76mm will be the standard platform as main armament for all future vessels.
    Its more practical than a deck crewed weapon in rough sea/weather.

    Rhein Metall seems to be the secondary of choice too. Not sure how many spare ones we have lyin around.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    By the time anything new comes on line I reckon the PVs will have begun to retire already and the Rh202s will be redundant so will by default become the seconaday weapon of the new vessel if not it will be the .5 as happened with the peacocks,Niamh and Roisin pending delivery of Rh202s

    The 76mm is the primary weapon of choice and given this is the predominant weapon in the NS I would asy it will continue on any new ships.

    GPMGs will still feature along with 'Wallop' 57mm flare launcers.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 15th April 2009 at 23:16.
    Time for another break I think......

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    yes id say that you are right on that one

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    TBH I think you have to look at where the NS has been historically with weapons to see where it has evolved to.

    Given that up to the recent past we operated weapons that were of WW2 vintage with gunnery skillss that were developed during that era with very basic equipment that was carried through from the corvettes through the sweepers onto the PV's..Eithne was the first vessel to employ modern weapons systems and hers were some what of an anomally toward world trends at the time.
    We were forced to move on with the purchase of the peacocks with their 76mm main weapon, the Rh202 Rheinmetall is an impressive weapon although not cheap and some body took an advantage of the Germans off loading theirs so we got a chance to upgrade on the cheap.

    Nothing wrong with the GamBo, rate of fire was abit slow in comparrsion to the Rh202, but cost wise it was a good refit for the PV's as the older Oerlikons were of 1940s vintage with the magazines causing major problem. worked on a clock work spring and were at the end of their lives, the guns in many cases were immaculate and even in 1986 i remember drawing a brand new one from stores still in its packing grease.

    There were two types of oerlikon in service which to the uneducated eye wasn't that obvious, the main difference being in the recoil spring.The American one had a square cross section as opposed to the UK built ones which had a round cross section, the former being the easier to strip.

    Ammunition wasn't a major problem but interchangibilty of ammo between the various 20mm 's was. the older weapons had a shorter brass cartridge as opposed to the alloy one in use in the GamBos and Rh202s, which in itself caused supply problems as this ammo wasn't interchangable either.

    The older weapon also had 181 working parts as opposed to the five groups in a Rh202 making it easier to train gunners.

    On the SG3 it took less time to teach all roles on the Bofors L40/60, maintaince etc than it did to teach stripping the oerlikon..have to say I loved that weapon..real work of engineering art.

    So looking at it retrospectively gunner has evolved hugely over the past twenty years given we had given the previous 40 in total stagnation.

    What we have now is as well proven as what we had twenty years ago and still has a considerable life expectancy. so from that I wouldn't expect any major changes in the format of the primary and secondary weapons in use on board near future Naval Service vessels.

    Probably far beyond what you wanted to know.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 15th April 2009 at 23:34.
    Time for another break I think......

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    The choice of 57mm for eithne was actually a good one, and perhaps better than 76mm, as you say it was forced upon us by default. The american navy and coast guard for example are moving from the 76mm to 57mm.

    The only possible change is that we might see a CIWS fitted to the EPV if it serves overseas, or they might move to remote control weapons for the 12.7mm, in the sea protector version.

    But then again, best wait to see what the tenders for the EPV comes back like

    I remember visiting the naval base in the sumer of 1986, and seeing a group of trainees being lectured on the Oerlikons, always remember the instructor turning to the class and saying that despite the interuption, they'd better remember all the parts when the lecture was finished.
    Last edited by paul g; 16th April 2009 at 00:09.

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Me..I was on a gunnery course in summer of '86.One was run in may June..the other august and july six weeks..started the firts one in june but was invalided off after the bofors and had to catch up in the second one,,,Bofors and oerlikon fired for the second course on Aisling and then posted to Eithne were I never used the 40/60 or Oerlikon again..went straight to Rh"202 and recieved my training from Golden Rivet. Were about four of us as O/Sea qualified to use it Fired it a bout half a dozen times ..awesome weapon...

    57mm on Eithne had one major draw back as the autoloaders had to be reloaded by hand from the mag lift and there was only about 50 rds RU ammo available as opposed to the carosuel inuse on the 76mm. Golden Rivet being more qualified than me on the 57mm would be the expert

    The %&mm turret had to be crewed although could be fired remotely from the ops room and possiblyyfrom the TDS on each brindge wing if local control was switched over.

    As a weapon system I could not fault the 57mm as it was good..but it was army ordnace who purcahsed it and not the NS first choice.

    the newer version is even more capabalbe but since we have tended toward 76mm I'd say we will have it for quite some time
    Time for another break I think......

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    I visited Haulbowline in July 1986, and the instructor in the gunnery class ( which you were probably in) made a deep and abiding impression on me. Got shown around by an officer, Cormac something or other, who was serving on the Banba at the time, he told me he changed his shirt four times a day, so that he could pick up ratings on their dress, the other lasting impression.

    Funny old world isn't it.

  9. #9
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    navy

    yes i beleive that officer is a lt cdr now still the same

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    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Rynne, most likely.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Certainly wasn't serving on the Banba at the time as she had been decomissioned and sold for scrap two years earlier.

    Officers didn't pick us up on our dress in those days as most of us were in rags...lol.

    Funnily enough the both the PO and LS instructing on that course had undergone their gunnery training for the minesweepers in the 70's in Whale Island...which is the nirvana of Naval Gunners.Fantastic instructors and were still instructing the same weapons 25 years later.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Could have been the Fola?, it is after all over twenty years ago, it was an Old Ton Classand it was tied up, awaiting disposal, was told that the next time it set sail would be to the scrap yard.

    Anyway, it was my one and only visit to Cork.

  13. #13
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Fola and Grainne most likely and they did sail again, but it was in january of 1988 indeed to scrap in Spain under tow.

    they were twoed outr seperatly the Fola going a very very miserable sunday morning and I was on duty and took some photos which were amongst the last ever to be taken of an Irish Minesweeper.

    Even under tow to scrap they still looked handsome. The naval association website has some nice pictures of the sweepers and there have been some nice ones psoted here.

    I had a jolly on one while in recruits, the Grainne. Made it out as far as Roches point and was towed back... the ignomy of my first ever day at sea..and her last.

    I'll ask him which one it was ....
    Time for another break I think......

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    Quote Originally Posted by zone 1 View Post
    what kind of guns for the new ships for irish navy will they go down the lines of more 76mm . or can we see more in lines of defence ...
    Main gun in or about 76mm gives a bit of reach and support fire. The current philosophy is to include a deterrent or a means of dealing with swarm or mass attacks. The RN Type 23's have added two 30mm auto guns AND on same mount a new multirole Thales Missile system with 5 X 10+/- Kg missiles. Thet are surface to surface, surface to air, and in Helos- air to surface. It was successfully tested last week in the Irish Sea against a radio controlled boat. The missile can also be shoulder fired. The naval version is laser beam riding- Range 6km-speed 1.5mach. Principle use- boats- drones-aircraft.
    The system has the Naval name of Martlet MRM. They have ordered 1000 over, we could order 10 mounts and 150 rounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Main gun in or about 76mm gives a bit of reach and support fire. The current philosophy is to include a deterrent or a means of dealing with swarm or mass attacks. The RN Type 23's have added two 30mm auto guns AND on same mount a new multirole Thales Missile system with 5 X 10+/- Kg missiles. Thet are surface to surface, surface to air, and in Helos- air to surface. It was successfully tested last week in the Irish Sea against a radio controlled boat. The missile can also be shoulder fired. The naval version is laser beam riding- Range 6km-speed 1.5mach. Principle use- boats- drones-aircraft.
    The system has the Naval name of Martlet MRM. They have ordered 1000 over, we could order 10 mounts and 150 rounds.
    There is no doubt that the Political world is becoming more aggressively unstable, with a capacity to create hot spots overnight. Sea trade is very vulnerable to disruption, as even in packed waterways ships can be picked off by armed fast boats. We may be part of that deterrent and should arm our ships accordingly. Replace 20mm with 30mm and add the Martlet suite.

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    Sergeant Major EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is no doubt that the Political world is becoming more aggressively unstable, with a capacity to create hot spots overnight. Sea trade is very vulnerable to disruption, as even in packed waterways ships can be picked off by armed fast boats. We may be part of that deterrent and should arm our ships accordingly. Replace 20mm with 30mm and add the Martlet suite.
    It is not just at sea but also on land we see a move up from 20/25mm to 30mm. But it is not just in calibre that the new mounts differ, there is also a long overdue replacement of the Mark 1 eyeball FCS with a modern remotely operated, fully stabilized with their own electro-optics. Some systems now like their land based cousin have programmable munitions while others have either SSM's or SAM's. But we should not forget newer systems such as high energy weapons or non-lethal options.

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    It is not just at sea but also on land we see a move up from 20/25mm to 30mm.
    Back the early noughties where 20mm was declared to be suboptimal and the Germans off loaded some of their Rh202 Rheinmetalls to us, shortly after we had gone with the 2Omm South African versions of the GIAT on the AML fleet. the RN had dallied with Oerlikon 30mm weaons for secondar weapons on larger ships and primary weapons on minor vessles, we've got it right with the OTO Melara 76mm weapon, maybe it is time to revisit the 20mm weapons and now consider what the RN has done with Martlet.
    Time for another break I think......

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  22. #18
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    WHile there is always room for manually operated weaponry, Local control is always superior as a first line defence. There are a range of RWS platforms available for naval use, operating weapons already in use, if the move to 27mm or 30mm was considered too heavy handed. That said, it took a while for the P50s to get 20mm. Until the Rh202 were gifted, 50 cal was the secondary of the day, on the rail of 01 deck, with big blind spots.
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    Would agree with above, using an existing weapon type e.g. a 20mm for a RWS, instead of jumping to 27/30mm might be considered more feasible (i’d discount 27mm, as it is not in PDF use).

    A new, high-up position, to front and/ or rear of the ships, for a 20mm RWS (compatible with existing 20mm), and to supplement the two existing 20mm guns, could be a good approach, giving each ship x3 (or x4) different, 20mm positions.

    Also, could a SAM(s) mount, such as the PDF’s RBS70, and/or French Mistral(s) be retro-fitted onto the existing 20mm mounts? This is noting that manually operated single (and twin) naval missile mounts/ stands exist for the RBS70 (and Mistral).

    Also as noted above, there seem to be a number of 20mm type RWS mounts available, that appear to be quite small, and include the Reutech 'Super-Rogue '3 (of the ‘Super-Rogue’ (!) family), that seems to include x4 of the same ‘LMM’ missile as the RN’s re-jiggged 30mm RWS with x5 missile mounts.

    EG.s
    Naval/ Nexter – Narwhal
    Reutech – Super Rogue
    Escribano – Sentinel
    Oerlikon – Searanger
    Oto-Melara – Marlin

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...t-helicopters/

    Looking at above, dare i ask what happened to the 20mm guns on the PDFs ALM20s?! (notwithstanding non-compatible ammunition feeds with NS guns i think).

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    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Until the Rh202 were gifted, 50 cal was the secondary o
    To be pedantic...only on the newer vessels at the time, the Gambo was the primary secondary system since 1986. There was no reason this shouldn't have continued only the Rhinos were 'gifted'

    if the move to 27mm or 30mm was considered too heavy handed
    I'd suggest retaining the 20mm systems and fitting a single point 30mm system aft of the funnel somewhere and add a missle system to it.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 23rd July 2019 at 21:41.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    To be pedantic...only on the newer vessels at the time, the Gambo was the primary secondary system since 1986. There was no reason this shouldn't have continued only the Rhinos were 'gifted'



    I' duggest retaining the 20mm systems and fitting a single point 30mm system aft of the funnel somewhere and add a missle system to it.
    As a fall back position, retaining the manual 20mm single mounts by 2, with an added AUTO 30mm fitted with co-mounted ( Thales ) MS Martlet would be an improvement and bridge the range deficiency on our ships, from 1000m to 4000m. Let's not go raking about in the scrapyard for old manual mounts.
    Remote mounts in AUTO mode provides better Target ID and engagement and prevents accidents from missile propellant ignition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhingeNot View Post
    Would agree with above, using an existing weapon type e.g. a 20mm for a RWS, instead of jumping to 27/30mm might be considered more feasible (i’d discount 27mm, as it is not in PDF use).

    A new, high-up position, to front and/ or rear of the ships, for a 20mm RWS (compatible with existing 20mm), and to supplement the two existing 20mm guns, could be a good approach, giving each ship x3 (or x4) different, 20mm positions.

    Also, could a SAM(s) mount, such as the PDF’s RBS70, and/or French Mistral(s) be retro-fitted onto the existing 20mm mounts? This is noting that manually operated single (and twin) naval missile mounts/ stands exist for the RBS70 (and Mistral).

    Also as noted above, there seem to be a number of 20mm type RWS mounts available, that appear to be quite small, and include the Reutech 'Super-Rogue '3 (of the ‘Super-Rogue’ (!) family), that seems to include x4 of the same ‘LMM’ missile as the RN’s re-jiggged 30mm RWS with x5 missile mounts.

    EG.s
    Naval/ Nexter – Narwhal
    Reutech – Super Rogue
    Escribano – Sentinel
    Oerlikon – Searanger
    Oto-Melara – Marlin

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...t-helicopters/

    Looking at above, dare i ask what happened to the 20mm guns on the PDFs ALM20s?! (notwithstanding non-compatible ammunition feeds with NS guns i think).
    That the 27x145mm round is currently not used by the PDF I would ignore as that logic removes ever having a new type of shell. Also now only the NS use the 20mm rounds!

    As for adding more mix to the munitions carried on the ships I would guard against it especially when it comes to missiles. These need special handling against shocks that will be present in an Atlantic storm!

    There are numerous RWS using the Mk44 Bushmaster or copies of it but one reason why I prefer to replace the Rh202s with their distant cousin the BK27 is the rate of fire and range. A Mk44 has a rate of 100/200 rpm, this is fine for slow moving targets but for fast moving seaborne or airborne a higher rate is preferred. The Rhinos were developed as an anti-aircraft gun and thus have a maximum rate of 880/1030rpm with a range 1600m for air targets and 2500m for surface.

    The BK27 (basis for MLG27) is an aircraft cannon designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground roles, Thus it has a rate of fire of 1000-1700rpm selectable +/-100rpm. It also has a range out to 4000m for surface targets. The advantage of this rate is that the mount can cover low rate burst for slow low threat targets and high rate bursts against high speed targets either seaborne or airborne.

    http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_27mm-145_mlg27.php

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  31. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    That the 27x145mm round is currently not used by the PDF I would ignore as that logic removes ever having a new type of shell. Also now only the NS use the 20mm rounds!

    As for adding more mix to the munitions carried on the ships I would guard against it especially when it comes to missiles. These need special handling against shocks that will be present in an Atlantic storm!

    There are numerous RWS using the Mk44 Bushmaster or copies of it but one reason why I prefer to replace the Rh202s with their distant cousin the BK27 is the rate of fire and range. A Mk44 has a rate of 100/200 rpm, this is fine for slow moving targets but for fast moving seaborne or airborne a higher rate is preferred. The Rhinos were developed as an anti-aircraft gun and thus have a maximum rate of 880/1030rpm with a range 1600m for air targets and 2500m for surface.

    The BK27 (basis for MLG27) is an aircraft cannon designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground roles, Thus it has a rate of fire of 1000-1700rpm selectable +/-100rpm. It also has a range out to 4000m for surface targets. The advantage of this rate is that the mount can cover low rate burst for slow low threat targets and high rate bursts against high speed targets either seaborne or airborne.

    http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_27mm-145_mlg27.php
    The basic problem to overcome for all of our ships is the endemic under-armament for normal patrol duties in even low intensity operations. The BK 27 or the Puma type 30mm armament coupled with remote mounting, to include co-mounted missile system , would fill a gap, and deal with swarm attacks. The USN include armament, on deck carried AV's, as part of ship defence, when on board. Versatile weapon system should allow single/low rate of fire as well as higher AA rates.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 24th July 2019 at 09:22.

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    It's an uphill battle when you have a DoD that has no interest in anything remotely aggressive in nature, and an element within the naval base happy to retain obsolete, but user friendly weaponry over maintenance heavy modern defensive armament. There was quite a fight to get the 76mm up front on the P60s. After all, there as still surplus 40mm L70 lying about and the RN has equipped it's most recent opv with smaller calibre main armament.
    (That has proved to be a mistake as the RN OPVs become the only vessels available to escort Russian Naval flotilla stretching their muscles in the English channel.)
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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    It's an uphill battle when you have a DoD that has no interest in anything remotely aggressive in nature, and an element within the naval base happy to retain obsolete, but user friendly weaponry over maintenance heavy modern defensive armament. There was quite a fight to get the 76mm up front on the P60s. After all, there as still surplus 40mm L70 lying about and the RN has equipped it's most recent opv with smaller calibre main armament.
    (That has proved to be a mistake as the RN OPVs become the only vessels available to escort Russian Naval flotilla stretching their muscles in the English channel.)
    Not forgetting maintenance heavy means personnel required

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