Originally posted by ancientmariner
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It is not just at sea but also on land we see a move up from 20/25mm to 30mm.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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WHile there is always room for manually operated weaponry, Local control is always superior as a first line defence. There are a range of RWS platforms available for naval use, operating weapons already in use, if the move to 27mm or 30mm was considered too heavy handed. That said, it took a while for the P50s to get 20mm. Until the Rh202 were gifted, 50 cal was the secondary of the day, on the rail of 01 deck, with big blind spots.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Would agree with above, using an existing weapon type e.g. a 20mm for a RWS, instead of jumping to 27/30mm might be considered more feasible (i’d discount 27mm, as it is not in PDF use).
A new, high-up position, to front and/ or rear of the ships, for a 20mm RWS (compatible with existing 20mm), and to supplement the two existing 20mm guns, could be a good approach, giving each ship x3 (or x4) different, 20mm positions.
Also, could a SAM(s) mount, such as the PDF’s RBS70, and/or French Mistral(s) be retro-fitted onto the existing 20mm mounts? This is noting that manually operated single (and twin) naval missile mounts/ stands exist for the RBS70 (and Mistral).
Also as noted above, there seem to be a number of 20mm type RWS mounts available, that appear to be quite small, and include the Reutech 'Super-Rogue '3 (of the ‘Super-Rogue’ (!) family), that seems to include x4 of the same ‘LMM’ missile as the RN’s re-jiggged 30mm RWS with x5 missile mounts.
EG.s
Naval/ Nexter – Narwhal
Reutech – Super Rogue
Escribano – Sentinel
Oerlikon – Searanger
Oto-Melara – Marlin
Thales recently conducted firing trials at Royal Artillery Air Defence Range at Manorbier as part of the Integration testing phase of the Future Anti Surface Guided Weapon (Light), (FASGW(L) programme.
Looking at above, dare i ask what happened to the 20mm guns on the PDFs ALM20s?! (notwithstanding non-compatible ammunition feeds with NS guns i think).
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Until the Rh202 were gifted, 50 cal was the secondary o
if the move to 27mm or 30mm was considered too heavy handedLast edited by hptmurphy; 23 July 2019, 20:41.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostTo be pedantic...only on the newer vessels at the time, the Gambo was the primary secondary system since 1986. There was no reason this shouldn't have continued only the Rhinos were 'gifted'
I' duggest retaining the 20mm systems and fitting a single point 30mm system aft of the funnel somewhere and add a missle system to it.
Remote mounts in AUTO mode provides better Target ID and engagement and prevents accidents from missile propellant ignition.
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Originally posted by WhingeNot View PostWould agree with above, using an existing weapon type e.g. a 20mm for a RWS, instead of jumping to 27/30mm might be considered more feasible (i’d discount 27mm, as it is not in PDF use).
A new, high-up position, to front and/ or rear of the ships, for a 20mm RWS (compatible with existing 20mm), and to supplement the two existing 20mm guns, could be a good approach, giving each ship x3 (or x4) different, 20mm positions.
Also, could a SAM(s) mount, such as the PDF’s RBS70, and/or French Mistral(s) be retro-fitted onto the existing 20mm mounts? This is noting that manually operated single (and twin) naval missile mounts/ stands exist for the RBS70 (and Mistral).
Also as noted above, there seem to be a number of 20mm type RWS mounts available, that appear to be quite small, and include the Reutech 'Super-Rogue '3 (of the ‘Super-Rogue’ (!) family), that seems to include x4 of the same ‘LMM’ missile as the RN’s re-jiggged 30mm RWS with x5 missile mounts.
EG.s
Naval/ Nexter – Narwhal
Reutech – Super Rogue
Escribano – Sentinel
Oerlikon – Searanger
Oto-Melara – Marlin
Thales recently conducted firing trials at Royal Artillery Air Defence Range at Manorbier as part of the Integration testing phase of the Future Anti Surface Guided Weapon (Light), (FASGW(L) programme.
Looking at above, dare i ask what happened to the 20mm guns on the PDFs ALM20s?! (notwithstanding non-compatible ammunition feeds with NS guns i think).
As for adding more mix to the munitions carried on the ships I would guard against it especially when it comes to missiles. These need special handling against shocks that will be present in an Atlantic storm!
There are numerous RWS using the Mk44 Bushmaster or copies of it but one reason why I prefer to replace the Rh202s with their distant cousin the BK27 is the rate of fire and range. A Mk44 has a rate of 100/200 rpm, this is fine for slow moving targets but for fast moving seaborne or airborne a higher rate is preferred. The Rhinos were developed as an anti-aircraft gun and thus have a maximum rate of 880/1030rpm with a range 1600m for air targets and 2500m for surface.
The BK27 (basis for MLG27) is an aircraft cannon designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground roles, Thus it has a rate of fire of 1000-1700rpm selectable +/-100rpm. It also has a range out to 4000m for surface targets. The advantage of this rate is that the mount can cover low rate burst for slow low threat targets and high rate bursts against high speed targets either seaborne or airborne.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_27mm-145_mlg27.php
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostThat the 27x145mm round is currently not used by the PDF I would ignore as that logic removes ever having a new type of shell. Also now only the NS use the 20mm rounds!
As for adding more mix to the munitions carried on the ships I would guard against it especially when it comes to missiles. These need special handling against shocks that will be present in an Atlantic storm!
There are numerous RWS using the Mk44 Bushmaster or copies of it but one reason why I prefer to replace the Rh202s with their distant cousin the BK27 is the rate of fire and range. A Mk44 has a rate of 100/200 rpm, this is fine for slow moving targets but for fast moving seaborne or airborne a higher rate is preferred. The Rhinos were developed as an anti-aircraft gun and thus have a maximum rate of 880/1030rpm with a range 1600m for air targets and 2500m for surface.
The BK27 (basis for MLG27) is an aircraft cannon designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground roles, Thus it has a rate of fire of 1000-1700rpm selectable +/-100rpm. It also has a range out to 4000m for surface targets. The advantage of this rate is that the mount can cover low rate burst for slow low threat targets and high rate bursts against high speed targets either seaborne or airborne.
http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_27mm-145_mlg27.phpLast edited by ancientmariner; 24 July 2019, 08:22.
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It's an uphill battle when you have a DoD that has no interest in anything remotely aggressive in nature, and an element within the naval base happy to retain obsolete, but user friendly weaponry over maintenance heavy modern defensive armament. There was quite a fight to get the 76mm up front on the P60s. After all, there as still surplus 40mm L70 lying about and the RN has equipped it's most recent opv with smaller calibre main armament.
(That has proved to be a mistake as the RN OPVs become the only vessels available to escort Russian Naval flotilla stretching their muscles in the English channel.)For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostIt's an uphill battle when you have a DoD that has no interest in anything remotely aggressive in nature, and an element within the naval base happy to retain obsolete, but user friendly weaponry over maintenance heavy modern defensive armament. There was quite a fight to get the 76mm up front on the P60s. After all, there as still surplus 40mm L70 lying about and the RN has equipped it's most recent opv with smaller calibre main armament.
(That has proved to be a mistake as the RN OPVs become the only vessels available to escort Russian Naval flotilla stretching their muscles in the English channel.)
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Originally posted by DeV View PostNot forgetting maintenance heavy means personnel required
It struck me, with ports in short supply we need to identify withdrawal locations for our ships in times of emergency- Killary harbour etc.
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Originally posted by ancientmariner View PostThe Navy must know what it NEEDS and not be led or cajoled by Ordnance Corps or DOD. 30mm armament is ok if it is in a 360deg format with two or more controlled units and backed up with a missile system. Spare L70 should be vehicle mounted to be deployable at any location in the country, assuming that ammunition is available.
It struck me, with ports in short supply we need to identify withdrawal locations for our ships in times of emergency- Killary harbour etc.
Too many stop gap arrangement in place, if someone in Naval Planning decreees with justifable back up that we need a 30mm turret with missile capability, there should be no step back until it is achieved.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostDisagree with L40/70 s being available in any format.
Too many stop gap arrangement in place, if someone in Naval Planning decreees with justifable back up that we need a 30mm turret with missile capability, there should be no step back until it is achieved.
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Just surmising that other budget restricted combatants stick fairly big calibre units onto trucks and use them in multirole su/air modes
We should also add elements of offence such as support fire by a higher calibre weapon
Put a 127mm gun on a vessel that we already have problems fitting with 76mm, is a bit like buy the pram for twins when you know you barely have the budget for a single babyCovid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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