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  1. #76
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    You seem to be leaving out the fact that the Treaty negoiations made it clear that the UK would not accept an Irish Navy for at least 25 years after the Treaty and even then were only willing to consider ships to deny U boats for the West Coast, in that 1927 conference when we floated the Cruiser/Destroyers the reply was only at most two squadrons of Minesweepers.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    You seem to be leaving out the fact that the Treaty negoiations made it clear that the UK would not accept an Irish Navy for at least 25 years after the Treaty and even then were only willing to consider ships to deny U boats for the West Coast, in that 1927 conference when we floated the Cruiser/Destroyers the reply was only at most two squadrons of Minesweepers.
    Just pointing out that we have an accidental Navy that keeps changing operational profile every time we acquire new or replacement tonnage. The 1927 Conference was contentious on the Defended Ports issue but the Brits were offering "Imposing 800t 16kt minesweepers of the Irish County Class and would be quite suitable ceremonially and for your President's yacht" Like now, we had no money, and didn't take up the offer of the twin screw vessels. Those present were civil servants and Army Officers. We should have been asking the Brits for a couple of dozen training staff and officers to secund to Irish service and start MCM and ASW as proposed for the embryo service. Two Squadrons of the bigger vessels would have been a reasonable start.

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  4. #78
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    The Irish County Class, had we got them, were not a bad little ship to start out with. A shame the 1927 conference never amounted to anything in the end, but if it had, these ships would have had to fly the Red Duster, and that was a dealbreaker..

    70m Long, beam of 8.7m. 4 inch QF up front, 12 pounder (3 inch) aft, Displ 721t.
    Crew of 74, though where you put them I'm not sure. Range of 1500NM at 10kn. Max speed 16kn, coal fired boilers.
    Most likely ships of this type already operated from Haulbowline.

    In the end the RN that remained and who were supposed to patrol the southern approaches didn't bother.
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 19th May 2020 at 20:31.
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  6. #79
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  8. #80
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    Question. Is there any constraint to this day on us because of the Treaty that limits our ambition to have a bigger /Better Navy, the details of which are kept from the people, and this explains the whole attatude of the types in charges of the DoD over the years.

  9. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Question. Is there any constraint to this day on us because of the Treaty that limits our ambition to have a bigger /Better Navy, the details of which are kept from the people, and this explains the whole attatude of the types in charges of the DoD over the years.
    I doubt it, more it allowed for the creation of a political/public disinterest in naval matters, you can see that all the way back to the memos and accounts during the negotiations.

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  11. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Even then the Brit side saw that we needed a naval mindset at such a conference. the leadership on our side had not yet attained a military/naval knowledge even though VIZE may have been a marine Engineer in UK prior to his Generalship. He was certainly with CLAN LINE and he survived being torpedoed off Algeria and went on to be purchasing officer for the republican side. An Analysis even from then shows a lack of deep planning and now an unrooted Naval ethic that needs to be finally nailed down and that will dictate the Fleet format. The Brits mentioned MCM, ASW, Fleet support and I would add AA Defence. We must stop being a quick change artist to steady the ship and the training requirements ashore. We probably also need a second base for MCM on the East Coast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Even then the Brit side saw that we needed a naval mindset at such a conference. the leadership on our side had not yet attained a military/naval knowledge even though VIZE may have been a marine Engineer in UK prior to his Generalship. He was certainly with CLAN LINE and he survived being torpedoed off Algeria and went on to be purchasing officer for the republican side. An Analysis even from then shows a lack of deep planning and now an unrooted Naval ethic that needs to be finally nailed down and that will dictate the Fleet format. The Brits mentioned MCM, ASW, Fleet support and I would add AA Defence. We must stop being a quick change artist to steady the ship and the training requirements ashore. We probably also need a second base for MCM on the East Coast.
    Just how old are you????
    https://www.difp.ie/docs/Volume3/1926/740.htm
    "if we want to preserve our neutrality against all comers, the existence of a well balanced naval and military force will make this more feasible, while, if we have confined ourselves entirely to land and coast defence, any fleet can closely blockade our shores with impunity."

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  14. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Just how old are you????
    https://www.difp.ie/docs/Volume3/1926/740.htm
    "if we want to preserve our neutrality against all comers, the existence of a well balanced naval and military force will make this more feasible, while, if we have confined ourselves entirely to land and coast defence, any fleet can closely blockade our shores with impunity."
    At that time an aspiration without the requirement of training , billlets, and plenty of quay wall space. The only bit we did was post war with the corvettes in 1949 onwards. We mostly had ONE corvette at sea with a two year lay-up for each.

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  16. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    At that time an aspiration without the requirement of training , billlets, and plenty of quay wall space. The only bit we did was post war with the corvettes in 1949 onwards. We mostly had ONE corvette at sea with a two year lay-up for each.
    Just to clarify my point. The Military/ Naval conversation at the time was ideological and was big on ranges of ships we might operate, without grasping the foundations required to produce a professionally competent navy and set out locations and bases for ships. Until the 6 MTB's arrived there were no vessels constructed as Naval vessels in service. Then in 1949 the 3 Corvettes arrived and all were based at Haulbowline with fuel tanks, Dockyard , Stores, School, and an unused working Drydock.
    In the early 1970's the Navy ran down to zero ships and an interim group of CMS's and a Danish trawler filled the gap until Deirdre plus 4 other ships were built at VCD Cork. In the 1980's, maybe 86/87 the two Peacocks were added. The consequence of all the latter ships was that all of the professional trades within the Service were lost such as ASW and MCM . Additionally the short lived aviation facility was strangled at birth. Naval skills should be endemic and ships acquired should implement the duties to maintain those skills.

  17. #86
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    Do you think that naval aviation failed because of aircraft availability or a reluctance of air corps to take the aircraft to sea? Would, in hindsight, the lynx have been a better naval heli, given it is still in widespread use (in modified form) almost 30 years on?
    One of the main naval architects involved in the design of P31 greatly regretted not extending the flight deck all the way aft.
    Hopefully the lessons of the past will be considered in the design of the replacement vessel, if it happens.
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  19. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Do you think that naval aviation failed because of aircraft availability or a reluctance of air corps to take the aircraft to sea? Would, in hindsight, the lynx have been a better naval heli, given it is still in widespread use (in modified form) almost 30 years on?
    One of the main naval architects involved in the design of P31 greatly regretted not extending the flight deck all the way aft.
    Hopefully the lessons of the past will be considered in the design of the replacement vessel, if it happens.
    There was a leadership positivity throughout to start Naval Aviation and initially it was a go. However an uncertainty developed when the aviation components were attached to the ship for longer periods. One such period the aircraft was confined to the shed, the pilots left, and the maintenance element remained on daily rate subsistence until the Helo was flown off in the Irish Sea. Gone never to be seen.
    The Lynx was deemed unsuitable as it wasn't believed to be as sea worthy or capable of International flight as the Dauphin. I really don't know but the choice , approved by the French, was theirs. The Flight deck was passed by all agencies, it could have been extended, but would have made Flight deck escape, and a Helo landing facing aft, more difficult. NO helicopter had difficulty landing and additionally a Gazelle came and joined us for lunch.
    Fleet operations and on scene emergencies are enhanced by having Flight decks for routine ship business and refuge if an own ship cannot take it's helo on board.

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  21. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Do you think that naval aviation failed because of aircraft availability or a reluctance of air corps to take the aircraft to sea? Would, in hindsight, the lynx have been a better naval heli, given it is still in widespread use (in modified form) almost 30 years on?
    IMHO I do not think it would have made much difference Lynx or Dauphin, as aircraft they are evenly matched. Also anyone I know who has worked on Westland products has had nothing but horror stories. The SA365/HH65/AS565 is still in service and production today. The four that we had are still doing great service in Chile, the French and many other navies continue to use them today with many upgrades. In fact most European operators of the Lynx have or are replacing them with much larger SH60/NH90 aircraft, only the RN in Europe has gone for an upgraded Lynx. The latter more from national pride than anything else.

    I seem to remember many moons ago AM proposing/suggesting that if Naval aviation to succeed it needs to be part of the NS. That might be a bit too far given the size of the force but a dedicated Naval Aviation does have its merits. But it also has drawbacks especially for those that want a career. Then again if naval aviation was a separate Wing with its own "esprit de corps" as the elite flyers then those pilots who want to fly would be attracted. "Any good pilot can land on a fixed helipad at night but putting a helicopter onto a pitching ship at night in a storm, that is a naval aviator".
    Last edited by EUFighter; 21st May 2020 at 15:49.

  22. #89
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    At the time the UK, France and the BENELUX navies were all using naval lynx, as were the Scandanavians, which were a joint project by Westland and Sud Aviation, The same SA who had provided us with the Alouette and Gazelle, before becoming Aerospatiale.
    There was a wealth of expertise on our doorstep in operating the type at sea from small ships decks. As ancientmariner said earlier, once the Dauphin was selected, the dutch, with whom we had a long standing working relationship in ship design (NEVESBU) were unable to offer any further assistance, and we were left to work with just the french, who had only just cleared the Dauphin for naval operations as ours were being delivered.
    Initial images of the design showed a Lynx on deck, and from memory the Dockyard model in NMCI has a Lynx on deck.
    The Dauphin was a new aircraft, not just the navalised version, the whole aircraft was new. France had withdrawn from the Lynx project and designed the Dauphin for their own needs, but they only withdrew the Naval Lynx in 2012.
    It was like VHS or Betamax. We went with Betamax. Nothing wrong with it, and audio and video engineers love the quality of the Beta, but every home had a VHS.
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  23. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    At the time the UK, France and the BENELUX navies were all using naval lynx, as were the Scandanavians, which were a joint project by Westland and Sud Aviation, The same SA who had provided us with the Alouette and Gazelle, before becoming Aerospatiale.
    There was a wealth of expertise on our doorstep in operating the type at sea from small ships decks. As ancientmariner said earlier, once the Dauphin was selected, the dutch, with whom we had a long standing working relationship in ship design (NEVESBU) were unable to offer any further assistance, and we were left to work with just the french, who had only just cleared the Dauphin for naval operations as ours were being delivered.
    Initial images of the design showed a Lynx on deck, and from memory the Dockyard model in NMCI has a Lynx on deck.
    The Dauphin was a new aircraft, not just the navalised version, the whole aircraft was new. France had withdrawn from the Lynx project and designed the Dauphin for their own needs, but they only withdrew the Naval Lynx in 2012.
    It was like VHS or Betamax. We went with Betamax. Nothing wrong with it, and audio and video engineers love the quality of the Beta, but every home had a VHS.
    If my memory serves me correctly, you posted an early design of the Eithne with a Lynx.
    True in the early '80's the Lynx was the aircraft of choice, but I still think even if we got it there would have been the same issues with the AC willingness to go to sea.

  24. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    At the time the UK, France and the BENELUX navies were all using naval lynx, as were the Scandanavians, which were a joint project by Westland and Sud Aviation, The same SA who had provided us with the Alouette and Gazelle, before becoming Aerospatiale.
    There was a wealth of expertise on our doorstep in operating the type at sea from small ships decks. As ancientmariner said earlier, once the Dauphin was selected, the dutch, with whom we had a long standing working relationship in ship design (NEVESBU) were unable to offer any further assistance, and we were left to work with just the french, who had only just cleared the Dauphin for naval operations as ours were being delivered.
    Initial images of the design showed a Lynx on deck, and from memory the Dockyard model in NMCI has a Lynx on deck.
    The Dauphin was a new aircraft, not just the navalised version, the whole aircraft was new. France had withdrawn from the Lynx project and designed the Dauphin for their own needs, but they only withdrew the Naval Lynx in 2012.
    It was like VHS or Betamax. We went with Betamax. Nothing wrong with it, and audio and video engineers love the quality of the Beta, but every home had a VHS.
    I,m not sure I said that as Nevesbu had a staff and a full time technical manager at VCD who was responsible for integrating the operations package including all comms and radar systems including ECM/ESM matters in relation to the Helicopter. Everybody remained in situ until the Government decision closed the Yard. The LYNX problem, as AC saw it, was the single Gem 42 engine which was an engine short of the TWO they required. They theorised that all Helicopters flying over ocean areas from ships or otherwise, as in Airsea rescue, MUST have TWO engines. The full package was their choice including, cabins, briefing room, workshops, X/Y cranes etc. etc. etc. to HOSTAC-1.

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  26. #92
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    France just recently stopped using the Alouette III as an SAR aircraft working from their Aircraft carrier.
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  27. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I,m not sure I said that as Nevesbu had a staff and a full time technical manager at VCD who was responsible for integrating the operations package including all comms and radar systems including ECM/ESM matters in relation to the Helicopter. Everybody remained in situ until the Government decision closed the Yard. The LYNX problem, as AC saw it, was the single Gem 42 engine which was an engine short of the TWO they required. They theorised that all Helicopters flying over ocean areas from ships or otherwise, as in Airsea rescue, MUST have TWO engines. The full package was their choice including, cabins, briefing room, workshops, X/Y cranes etc. etc. etc. to HOSTAC-1.
    Sure the AC were not looking at the Westland Wasp, as the Lynx is and always was a twin engine helicopter.

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  29. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Sure the AC were not looking at the Westland Wasp, as the Lynx is and always was a twin engine helicopter.
    Certainly an error of recall on my part for which I apologise and must do better!!. The Lynx for some reason was discarded by AC and the points made for the Dauphin were twin engines, full international flight, retractable under carriage . The Lynx was not popular with AC for some singular reason.

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  31. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Certainly an error of recall on my part for which I apologise and must do better!!. The Lynx for some reason was discarded by AC and the points made for the Dauphin were twin engines, full international flight, retractable under carriage . The Lynx was not popular with AC for some singular reason.
    It has been mentioned a number of times on the board over the years that the Air Corps wanted the Puma for Army Support/SAR and the Lynx was favored for Naval Support but the DoD compromised and selected one helicopter type (Dauphin) for both missions. Is that true or just an urban legend?
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    We need not forget that both the Lynx and Puma were very common sights just north of the border. So maybe the chance of one of the "old boys" taking a potshot at an AC Lynx or AC Puma was considered too high?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    We need not forget that both the Lynx and Puma were very common sights just north of the border. So maybe the chance of one of the "old boys" taking a potshot at an AC Lynx or AC Puma was considered too high?
    The Gazelle was also a common sight In the north as well, but that didn't stop the Air Corps from operating 2 of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    The Gazelle was also a common sight In the north as well, but that didn't stop the Air Corps from operating 2 of them.
    AFIK we did not do troop movements near the border with the Gazelle but if we had got some Puma's or Lynx's they would have been used for that.
    I was just thinking, poor visibility, an AC Puma/Lynx landing near the border with troops jumping out, might that not have been mistaken for a RAF machine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    It has been mentioned a number of times on the board over the years that the Air Corps wanted the Puma for Army Support/SAR and the Lynx was favored for Naval Support but the DoD compromised and selected one helicopter type (Dauphin) for both missions. Is that true or just an urban legend?
    It was what it was in the early 1980's the Aer Corps selected the Dauphin and seemed to see it as the one for Naval Support and Search and Rescue. Five were bought and at least two were Fully fitted for Naval use with Harpoon and compatible landing gear. Later it was discarded mentally after Tramore for the opposite reasons of it's original selection- Not enough Range-Not enough lifting capacity- limited single engine performance-not able to find it's way home in low vis. All that when fitted to full instrument rules, international flight including flying to France and finding a home with another Service.

  37. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It was what it was in the early 1980's the Aer Corps selected the Dauphin and seemed to see it as the one for Naval Support and Search and Rescue. Five were bought and at least two were Fully fitted for Naval use with Harpoon and compatible landing gear. Later it was discarded mentally after Tramore for the opposite reasons of it's original selection- Not enough Range-Not enough lifting capacity- limited single engine performance-not able to find it's way home in low vis. All that when fitted to full instrument rules, international flight including flying to France and finding a home with another Service.
    One of the issues identified by Dh248 accident report was that though the heli was fitted with avionics capable of an ILS approach to waterford by autopilot, which would have put the aircraft in a hover over the runway, this was not approved for use by the Air Corps themselves, and pilots were not trained in its use.
    As for the risk of our aircraft being confused with british aircraft on the border Both the Puma we had during 1982 and all the Alouettes up there had a large tricolour (visible from space) painted on the side, and bottom.
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