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  • #46
    Originally posted by Border Bunny View Post
    Your lucky down in the Brugha.
    When I passed out last year I was put into a 8 man room, one of the rooms we used in 2-3*. There was only one bathroom on our floor.
    You have a rec room?
    Luxury!!

    Are you too young to have seen Monty Python's "Four Yorkshiremen"?

    Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.
    Last edited by Sluggie; 22 August 2009, 11:03.

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    • #47
      What's that mess in the Curragh that overlooks the ranges? Have you seen the rooms upstairs for 'visiting senior NCOs'. Rarely used, a complete vanity while Connolly Lines is far from the standard it should be.
      Bullshit.Get your facts straight.That mess was the old hospital mess.It is now the Military college NCO's mess.The rooms upstairs are used by NCO's sent to instruct on courses in the Military college and are very much in demand all year round.So much so that what were originally one and two man rooms now have three beds in each!There are only two senior NCO's (BSM's) living in and only because they are from down the country whilst their jobs are in the DFTC.So rarely used i think not, and a vanity?What a crock

      Also i worked in an officers mess as mess NCO for a time.I have seen the condition that most junior officers keep there rooms in and it is a disgrace.Total hypocrisy then to inspect Pte's quarters and bottle them for not keeping them clean.Do as i say not do as i do.
      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Tango_Charlie View Post
        Jessup you make some valid points but by your reasoning, a red arse 2nd lieutenant fresh outta the cadet school would be entitled to better accomodation than a Sgt. Major? No way.

        Of course there should be certain priveleges with rank but keep it realistic.
        Originally posted by Tango_Charlie View Post
        Jessup you make some valid points but by your reasoning, a red arse 2nd lieutenant fresh outta the cadet school would be entitled to better accomodation than a Sgt. Major? No way.

        Of course there should be certain priveleges with rank but keep it realistic.
        No, no, no. You didn't read my post at all. In the same way that there is parity between ranks on pay there should be a parallel on accommodation. As you increase in rank, so does your pay and if living in so should your accommodation. A lot of people on this thread don't even agree on that. They want everyone regardless of rank in the same accommodation.

        Using pay as a guide I suggested that a Sgt is linked to a Lt. Well logically take it on from there. CS and CQMS linked to a Capt. BSM and BQ to Comdt. That's the way I saw it in the UK. Its operating like that on the ground here as far as I could see. I shared a room on a number of occasions as a Lt but never as a Captain. I knew some living in Sgts who shared and some who had their own room. Of the CS's and CQs I knew that lived in none shared and no surprise that the CQs quarters were much better than mine as a Captain

        Some might ask how many CS, CQMS, BSM and BQ live in but I noticed before I left that those with ambition were quite prepared to move Bks to seek out promotion. So if a Sgt in the 4 Bn get promoted CS in the 12 Bn then he should have accommodation on a par with a Captain in that Bks. In a Coy there is only one Captain and one CS and leaving the strict rank interpretation issues aside they are equal pegging in the Coy for practical purposes (well, that's what most Captains like to believe, a lot of CS's would have a different idea )

        As for Ptes and Cpls. I make no apology for suggesting that their accommodation should not be at the same level as a Sgt. If we start the parity system there and link Sgt to Lt and that means that every Sgt or Lt (which means every officer ) is in better digs than a Pte or Cpl then so be it. I mean better as in not sharing but smaller sq ft, a sink, built in units etc.

        If those with a chip rather than a pip on the shoulder can accept that a CS that is living in should have better digs than a Pte then I would suggest that a Captain should also have better digs. Alas, once 'officer accommodation' is mentioned it's red rag to a bull and logic goes out the window.
        Last edited by Jessup; 22 August 2009, 12:32.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by hurryupandwait View Post
          Im slightly off topic here but id like to back to something Jessop said (sorry guys but i dont know how to quote on this site yet!!)
          Basically it said "no apoloogies etc chain of command...they have earned it"
          Maybe so Jessop, but do you apply this argument to a 2 LT straigth out of the cadet school. Personally I always viewed the cadet school as a type of apprenticeship....teaches you the theory of what you will be doing, but you only learn your job when you go to your unit (I would hold recruit training in the same light)
          In my experience a pip on either shoulder earns you nothing but disdain. Ptes view 2 LT's as over eager gobshites who havent a clue, SNCO's tolerate them as having to learn. Point I'm making is that "earning" something takes time, it isnt an automatic right just because youv'e completed a course (lets face it thats all cadet school is, a course, take a civvie, make him an officer).
          And please guys before you hit me with the "did you ever do it" line...no I didnt, but I did hang up my camo in Jan of this year as a SNCO with 22 under my belt....so in my opinion (humble as it may be) that must count for something
          Maybe this should be transferred to the Army Officer thread?

          I think myself and Hedgehog discussed this already. The organisation has to believe in the system. There are many things that you can't cover in the Cadet School from a technical skills and experience POV. It goes back to the 'character' cliche. In particular the integrity angle and having to make unpopular decisions as a a matter of course. I'm guessing that when you did your Pots Cse that giving rather than following unpopular orders was one of the biggest transitions? Maybe you found your Std Cse as an easier transition? Newly commissioned officers have to learn that concept without dilution in a black and white environment and then get released into the wild. If you left that part of their character development to on the job then it would be littered with problems.

          You are manipulated in the Cdt Sch all the time there, given opportunities to make things easy by lying and constantly put in situations that make you ferociously unpopular with your classmates. They are even more devious in doing that on the Potential Officers Cse. When in appointment if they ever catch doing the 'its not me, blame them' thing you're finished. A guy in my class did that as Sch Orderly and it was the final nail in his coffin that saw him back classed.

          Dealing with disinterested Ptes or NCOs who think they know it all is not confined to your time as a 2/Lt. Dealing with the apathy, disdain, and sense of superiortiy is part of the development processes. It builds character. One of my first Pln Sgts was an awful walloper, constantly undermining me and always with the smart comments but nothing that you could charge him with. It was great for my development and when I was in the depot a few years later with a Sgt that everyone was scared of I was so used to dealing with the other guy it was easy. In fact, in one way every 2/Lt should be teamed up with a horrible Pln Sgt for a period or one following a script from the Coy Comdr. What doesn't kill you will make you stronger kind of idea. :wink:

          The same on my first trip o/seas. All my NCOS had multiple trips who thought they knew it all and me on my first trip. They wanted to be able to drink Almazas with the lads, and not ride them to improve the DPs which is hard, physical, unpopular work. The officer is pre-conditioned from a 2/Lt that his troops are not his friends and they might very well hate him. So I made no apology about working on the DPs. Now the fairy tale story is that one of the new DPs saved the lives of one of the Pln. It rarely works out like that because if it did you would have enough 'case studies' that the decision wouldn't be unpopular at all. Sure, we got a numerous firing closes but no DP was hit directly so they probably still bitch about it today but I had the 'character' to know what I did was right.
          Last edited by Jessup; 22 August 2009, 12:35.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by apod View Post
            Bullshit.Get your facts straight.That mess was the old hospital mess.It is now the Military college NCO's mess.The rooms upstairs are used by NCO's sent to instruct on courses in the Military college and are very much in demand all year round.So much so that what were originally one and two man rooms now have three beds in each!There are only two senior NCO's (BSM's) living in and only because they are from down the country whilst their jobs are in the DFTC.So rarely used i think not, and a vanity?What a crock

            Also i worked in an officers mess as mess NCO for a time.I have seen the condition that most junior officers keep there rooms in and it is a disgrace.Total hypocrisy then to inspect Pte's quarters and bottle them for not keeping them clean.Do as i say not do as i do.
            Well if you want to talk about facts I spoke to a colleague who was on the half lobotomy last night to ask him the name of that mess because it was bugging me to put a name on it. He said that there is some considerable disquiet in the College among NCOs because at least one of those rooms is being blocked by an MFO Sgt and another by a Pte who is CBT (Can't Be Touched). Care to comment?

            As for the fact that there is more than one NCOs mess in the Curragh, its the same as having multiple officers messes - just plain wrong when that money should be put into living in accommodation. As for your time as a Mess NCO that's wrong too, in any Mess; Officers, NCOs or Ptes. Q staff should deal with all accommodation and the Canteen Board should run all messes paid for by the members. If the mess can't sustain the expense of Canteen Board staff then close the mess but retain the accommodation.

            But what about the central theme to this post. Should the two BSMs in the Mil Col NCOs mess not have to bunk in with Ptes/have the same standard as Ptes or should their accommodation be on par with a Comdt?

            The old officers dirty rooms and o/ranks clean rooms one is a complete joke. Of course when you INSPECT a soldiers room its going to be clean. He knows he's going to be inspected That's not the same as you being in officers room without his/her prior knowledge and finding it untidy.

            You want to see the state of some o/ranks quarters that I've seen while on patrol as O/O which were gleaming the week before on inspection. That's been the same game since Adam was a nipper. Come on now, that happens everywhere. They're not Recruits or Cadets anymore so give them some latitude. Breakage or damage is inexcusable but being untidy is a bit pedantic. On that note, in my experience with o/ranks it was 'prove that I broke it' with officers it was 'write a cheque now Captain'.

            I was a mess secretary for a period and found that only a minority of officers were untidy. My room was inspected once a month in USAC and CBB, but admittedly not in other posts where I served. I couldn't convince the Mess President to have inspections when I was Mess Sec but I would have them if I was Mess President. I'm sorry if any of those who have untidy rooms are not flogged on the square for the enjoyment of the mess staff but if it was warranted they would have got a PE from the Mess President. Do it a second time and its going in your file, the usually works :wink:
            Last edited by Jessup; 22 August 2009, 12:37.

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            • #51
              I think people may be taking up what you define as "standard of accomodiation" wrongly.

              If you are thinking similarly to me... the standard of accomodiation is the fact that it is clean, serviceable, in good repair, has adequate light & heat, access to ablutions, no overly cramped conditions etc etc

              Others may be think you mean that it has a carpet, fancy curtains, etc

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              • #52
                jessop thanks for the reply and sorry if you had covered it already with someone else (as stated Im new here)

                Youve made valid arguments and for the record in my opinion no NCO should ever undermine an officer, its plain unprofessional. However a newly commissioned officer should also be professional enough to realise that sometimes his NCO's do know more than him, and that the knowledge they have gained could quite possibly be from experience.

                In relation to the conditioning etc on a cadet course, believe me when I say its not so different on a Pot NCO's course. Give the guy enough rope etc

                I am and always will be of the opinion that you dont take promotion to make friends so I understand where your coming from on that one

                I apologise for being off thread (as you so quickly pointed out Jessop )

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  I think people may be taking up what you define as "standard of accomodiation" wrongly.

                  If you are thinking similarly to me... the standard of accomodiation is the fact that it is clean, serviceable, in good repair, has adequate light & heat, access to ablutions, no overly cramped conditions etc etc

                  Others may be think you mean that it has a carpet, fancy curtains, etc
                  Well I kinda mean both but agree that the emphasis should be on the former. I think most of that is currently there with the exception of the 'cramped' angle. That has a lot to do with a scale of issue not being enforced. Barrack rat Ptes or Cpls in single rooms and other Pte and Cpls living on top of each other. The big thing with higher rank I feel is the privacy issue. Your own door that you can lock.

                  As per kit out, there should not be any opulence at any rank and in my experience in Ireland in the accommodation there was not. The public rooms thing is a pet hate of mine. McKee Officers Mess being the prime example. You should see the state of the rooms upstairs with the exception of those on the middle landing where you have all the Cols and trust me they are far from opulent or palaces either. Give me the smallest room in CBB anytime instead and McKee is supposed to be the DFHQ Mess!

                  However, when you talk about fit out I think there should be some differences too.

                  Sgts and Lts in small single rooms with no fixed furniture and no sink (think of the Cdt Sch lines type room).

                  CS's, CQs, Captains in slightly larger single rooms with maybe a sink in the room, and fitted wardrobes etc. but sharing toilets and showers (think of CBB officers mess).

                  BQs BSMs, Comdts and above might progress to an ensuite (think of the eight CBB 'ultra billets' at the end of the mess).

                  I don't know how realistic that is based on what is there already. Maybe a lot of single rooms have sinks already so I'm not suggesting they get taken out because its a Sgt's or Lt's room - but with Army 'logic' you never know :wink:

                  Something along those lines with a noticeable improvement as you ascend the ranks. Start from the bottom up but I still believe in the principle of better living in accommodation with rank.
                  Last edited by Jessup; 22 August 2009, 13:30.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Any DF pers if detailed for a course should be provided with accommodation in the nearest military post.
                    In the case of the portakabin kids:

                    1- They were based in their home units
                    2- they asked to move to Dublin- even though they were told that no accomodation existed for them (perhaps they had heard about the City west scam)
                    3- As far as I am aware- 4 Years of eager young college students had been bussed up and down from the DFTC quiet successfully-
                    4- these were lads studying logistics and hotel management/catering- what is very ironic is logisticians and hotel managers couldnt realise that accom couldnt be just pulled out of thin air.


                    If the transport solution is the way forward then apply it to all ranks.

                    A soldier in the DFTC doing the chefs course in DIT Cathal Brugha Street shouldn't be accommodated in McKee or CBB. He should be driven up and down every day or give him PTR at massive cost to the state versus accommodation.
                    Thats silly and spiteful- you will find lads on cooks course were billeted in transit accom- I dont think young officers would have been put in transit accom ( sure wouldnt the fabric of society be rent asunder)


                    PDFORRA are part of the agenda. There's a section in DFHQ to deal with them for Gods sake. It's called C&A!
                    Ah C& A I was wondering when you would get around to this- C&A or as its called No and No

                    Have a read of the PDFORRA mag and they list everything that goes through C& A-

                    but very little is approved by C&A most then goes to the next level for a proper decision.

                    C&A is good for one thing- we now have an extra full Col on the books and an extra 2 Lt Cols.
                    you have to admire thinking like this-

                    lets be straight- NO repeat NO senior Officer is worried about what PDFORRA thinks- dont fool yourself or try and fool us on this one,

                    As for Generals and Nashville. There's not an Army in the universe where Generals don't have perks. He was the 2i/c of the DF for crying out loud. I think he's earned more than a scratcher in the lines with three other bods.
                    when you say more than a scratcher in the lines with the other bods- how do you determine how much more- next time your in CBB have a look at the palatial (yes ) setting for what was his gaff- have a look at the lovely garden

                    then when you think he is entitled to his perk- have a look at the living out lines for 2 Bn and 2 Cav persons-

                    what leader in his right mind would put his own comfort before the comfort of his own men-

                    There's not an Army in the universe where Generals don't have perks
                    Perks should be he gets his tea handed to him in the morning- mate the Raj era is long dead


                    Take officers out of it for a second because I feel most posters can't see beyond that red mist.
                    WHy do you always use the defence - sure they are anti Officer- that a Sinn Fein tactic- your obviously a very intellegent person- so please dont try and pretend we (or at least me) is anti Officer.

                    I love really love most Officers in the Irish Defence Forces.- especially some of the birds.
                    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                    Are full of passionate intensity.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      The organisation has to believe in the system.
                      . One of my first Pln Sgts was an awful walloper, constantly undermining me and always with the smart comments but nothing that you could charge him with.
                      I think we are all in agreement here

                      no matter how young /red headed/culchie/female/pimply faced or incompetent the 2/Lt is on arriving to the Unit- He is still the Boss-
                      What he says goes- as NCO's our job is to help him and that help also includes steering him
                      to the path of righteousness.

                      The blame for every scorpy cranky bitchy COmdt lies purely at the foot of an incompetent smartarse idiot NCO who made the Comdt the way he was.
                      Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                      Are full of passionate intensity.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Your last sentence there hedgehog is ridiculous.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by hurryupandwait View Post
                          Your last sentence there hedgehog is ridiculous.
                          Why?
                          Its probably a bit to precise with the wording every

                          but the snetiment is right

                          but for you I will rephrase it:

                          the blame for a certain percentage of scorpy arsed Comdts lies squarely at the feet of

                          incompetent, lazy and waster NCO's.
                          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                          Are full of passionate intensity.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Jessup,

                            In relation to standards in accomadation and space availble to personsI really thing you should have a look at a Peacock Class Patrol vessel and the ratings accomadation to see how bad it can get...and within forty feet you have people living in singular accomadation units because of a pay grade..

                            Rank may have its priveleges but its doesn't give one group the right to live in realtive comfort while the rest live and very confined and restricted living quarters with no privacy.


                            The fact there was an outcry because a group of junior officers living in cramped conditions where as enlisted are expected to live in similar conditions that underpin the whole situation. Ok you got paid for your rank, took the job in hand , but it doesn't give the army the right to not provide adequate accomadation for enlisted young men, just because they have a lower pay grade and status within the army.

                            On the topic of NCOs undermining officers,I would hope that the officer would be of strong enough charachter to be able to diffuse this.

                            Its actually a form of bullying and harrasment and is intolerable, if the army can't provide the officer or any other individual with suitable mechanisms , and we all know they are in place, to deal with this the army has faied its memebers.

                            If an officer can't find away around this to protect himslef maybe he should reconsider his position within the DF as if he is not in a position to protect himself , how can he as a line manager ever expect to be able to fend for his men.

                            I would take the view point that many young officer having come through the cadet school and posted to certain positions are very immature and not exactly worldly wise when it comes to dealing with grizzled old NCOs who may have a chip or their shoulder.

                            If youngofficer finds himslef within this position then the service has failed him, but then again he is no better off than most guys directly out of recruits as often they find themselves in similar situations without the rank to be able to sort these problems out.

                            i can honestly say that there is a level of intimidation from both sides of thefence and it should not be tolerated,(a) the individual involved must have belief in the system to change the circumstances should he report them and (b) the system should ahve the faith in the individual to support them should the need arise.
                            To my mind (b) is more often that not failing.

                            People are more often than not interested in progressing there careers than looking after the needs of the individual, which begs the question are the right individuals been selected to hold authourity if they can't support their charges.

                            Carreer vs Responsibilty over their charges. Of course the party line will be upheld of equality to all men and systems to protect the disadvantaged..but as George Orwell cited ..some are more equal than others.
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                              Why?
                              Its probably a bit to precise with the wording every

                              but the snetiment is right

                              but for you I will rephrase it:

                              the blame for a certain percentage of scorpy arsed Comdts lies squarely at the feet of

                              incompetent, lazy and waster NCO's.
                              The quality of NCOs has improved dramatically Hedgehog so if we accept your theory lets hope that results in consistently better officers too. There have been some inevitable teething problems with some Celtic Tiger graduates of the Cdt Sch but I would say that about those that came after me wouldn't I? The numbers of applicants was down (until this week ) so this had an effect on quality. There's an obvious time lag with recruits from the same era making it to NCO so lets hope there aren't the same problems there.

                              I'll tell what the next big challenge is with NCOs. Its for another thread I think. What do you do when we get to a situation when lads are making CS and CQ in their mid to late thirties and BSM and BQ in their mid to late forties?

                              That's all well and good for them but it puts a cork in the bottle and blocks that vacancy for everyone behind them for decades. Time to seriously consider introducing the Warrant Officer rank to push on those guys and let a good turnover flow behind them. There's a shortage of Captains anyway. It wouldn't affect officers promotions. Ideal posts would be barrack QMs, Training Depots etc. Any thoughts out there?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Any thoughts out there?
                                Whats the point..you see to have all the answers..the rest of us will just continue to read your soapbox solutions
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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