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  1. #1
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    Question DF accomodation issues

    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    Oh get off your high horse.

    A:RACO wasn't to the back in coming forward when complaining about PDF officers living in portakabins in the Brugha recently

    B: Sam Bs were offered IIRC by the COS as a sop
    You can't equate an issue about living conditions for members with an issue about a ceremonial part of uniform. I saw that thread mentioning portakabins but decided not to contribute as the whole tone was anti officer and anti officers going to college. All ranks should be housed in solid block accommodation. As you progress through the ranks your accommodation should improve. Ptes might share a room, S/NCOs get their own room and so should officers. It's not even in the same ball park as RDF officers crying that they couldn't wear the Sam Browne.

    If it was PDFORRA seeking improvements in living in accommodation would you be throwing that grenade into the debate? Officer accommodation is far from the top of RACO's priorities, all you have to do is look at it.

    The Sam Browne issue was top of RDFRA's agenda and took up huge time at the conference. You can justify an accommodation issue on it merits, the Sam Browne issue was a trivial matter. It would be like RACO campaigning to have the red stripe taken off the Dress Uniform (which is poxy and most officers hate it). Anyone who would raise that would be laughed off the stage. There are far bigger fish to fry.

    The fact that the Sam Browne issue was pursued so vigorously by RDFRA trivialised the organisation in the eyes of many and reinforced the perception that any issue raised by them was not to be taken seriously.

  2. #2
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    I saw that thread mentioning portakabins but decided not to contribute as the whole tone was anti officer and anti officers going to college.
    I posted a lot of comments on that particular issue- I dont think it was anti Officer I did however point out the fact that - these were young officers studying catering and tourism living in the DFTC and being bussed every day to Dublin- this bussing arrangement didnt work out for them,

    they complained to RACO - RACO complained on their behalf looking for accomodation in DUblin- none was to be had except City west - the DF in its wisdom put them into Portacabins in CBB

    these were no ordinary Portacabins they were little palaces- any enlisted man living in in CBB would have swapped but still the chosen ones complained.

    whats anti officer about that-

    a suggestion doing the rounds of CBB at the time was - evict all the married officers living in married quarters and let the students live there at normal mess rates

    picture a lead baloon in the air
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    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
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    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    any enlisted man living in in CBB would have swapped but still the chosen ones complained.

    whats anti officer about that-
    Surely any enlisted man in any army would, if given the choice, take an officers accommodation over enlisted accommodation? Should the quality of accommodation not be some way related to rank?

    That's a bit of a facile argument. It's like one of my Platoon in UNIFIL complaining about how much the Italian helicopter pilots were being paid in contrast to him. He honestly didn't see the irony in that argument.

    Compare like with like.

    Enlisted accommodation in the Brugha versus Clonmel, Kilkenny, Athlone, pretty much anywhere Hedgehog - There's only one winner there.

    Officer accommodation in a portakabin on the square versus officer accommodation in the mess - There's only one winner there.

  4. #4
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Off topic perhaps, but why is it that officers require to be treated as a seperate class from non comissioned?
    I see the need for seperate accomodation, naturally, but why should one officer occupy the same amount of space as 6 enlisted personell?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  5. #5
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Your mising the point entirely

    when you and RACO say portacabins your hemming it up- they were in fact purpose built transitory accomodation buildings- each room had an ensuite- and because for some reason it was considered sub standard ( well done RACO) they got it free gratis.

    you have to remember these were lads based in the DFTC not in a Dublin Unit- they demanded to be accomodated in DUblin

    Knowing full well everywhere in Dublin was at max occupancy- so they were either stirring it or looking for a city west type soloution.

    Compare like with like.

    Enlisted accommodation in the Brugha versus Clonmel, Kilkenny, Athlone, pretty much anywhere Hedgehog - There's only one winner there.

    Officer accommodation in a portakabin on the square versus officer accommodation in the mess - There's only one winner there.
    Lets do the real comparison

    Officers accom in a Portakabin -V- Officers accom in an Officers Mess in the DFTC bussed up and down every day
    to my mind it would be - well do I want the solid block accom and the hassle of getting the transit twice a day and missing out on College Social life

    or do I want the free accom in CBB and still have all the benifits of a mess and be able to have a college social life and be able to crib as well.


    before you start assuming stuff you have to remember I am in CBB. I have been on duties with the inhabitants of Camp X Ray -


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hedgehog
    any enlisted man living in in CBB would have swapped but still the chosen ones complained.

    whats anti officer about that-

    Surely any enlisted man in any army would, if given the choice, take an officers accommodation over enlisted accommodation?
    Christ NO- have you seent he state of the Officers mess in CBB- its like something from a soviet era barracks- the inhabitants do themselves no favours by not at least keeping there rooms and the surroundings clean

    Or does the holding of the COmmission preclude them from lifting the empty bacardi breezer bottle from outside there door.

    The standard of enlisted accom in CBB is far higher than living in Officer accom- primarily because we have good CQ's who inssit on a level of cleanliness


    Should the quality of accommodation not be some way related to rank
    you do know the days of the Raj are well gone-

    In fact should it not be the case that our Officers are knocking on doors demanding improvements in accom for THEIR men

    surely with that magiic commission and as a pay back for the salute comes the responsibility to ensure that YOUR Troops have accom second to none

    and not second to none but not as good as mine because I am an Officer
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    Off topic perhaps, but why is it that officers require to be treated as a seperate class from non comissioned?
    I see the need for seperate accomodation, naturally, but why should one officer occupy the same amount of space as 6 enlisted personell?
    That might be case on a ship but have you ever really seen any officer accommodation like USAC or CBB or Collins Bks in Cork. Two enlisted personnel might fit in them in bunk beds maybe but six? Maybe if they were members of the National Pygmy Army!

    Take the officer reference out and I'll believe it's not anti officer. What about Senior NCOs getting a room to themselves. Proper order IMO.

  7. #7
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    these are open discussions Jessup

    I dont think any one is anti officer- anti senior nco- anti private

    anything anti things (except gingers)

    scale back on the paranoia-

    there are serving and ex officers on here all the time
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  8. #8
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    That might be case on a ship but have you ever really seen any officer accommodation like USAC or CBB or Collins Bks in Cork. Two enlisted personnel might fit in them in bunk beds maybe but six? Maybe if they were members of the National Pygmy Army!

    Take the officer reference out and I'll believe it's not anti officer. What about Senior NCOs getting a room to themselves. Proper order IMO.
    I have cleaned up cadets accomodation in DFTC.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    I have cleaned up cadets accomodation in DFTC.
    Standards must be slipping! What were you doing cleaning up Cadet accommodation. A large amount of my time as a Cadet was spent cleaning

    Eight to a 'passage' (terrible double entendre I know) which were small rooms similar to anyone on a course in the DFTC in junior year. Two to a room in the mess in senior year.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    I have cleaned up cadets accomodation in DFTC.
    Is this going somewhere.... ?
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  11. #11
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    Accomodation for all ranks varies massively between barracks.

    Rooms in the cadet school are quite small in the pasaiste. Cadets share a larger room as a senior but these vary in size, some are big, some are cramped.

  12. #12
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Should the quality of accommodation not be some way related to rank?
    Not unless you are paying for it.

    A large amount of my time as a Cadet was spent cleaning
    No different to an enlisted recruit, so why should it change after being commisioned.

    i was witness to the absolute waste of man power tied up in officer/steward situation.I'm not belittling anybody in any respect as in the NS some of these guys were absolutely brilliant in the job they performed and under the culture of the time it was a requirement.

    Some abused the privelege of having stewards, some stewards abused the position of having acccess to officers, works both ways.

    In the 21st century every person should at leats have earned the right to have decent living conditions in the DF regardless of rank but alos has an obligation to look after these quarters.

    Portakabins are not suitable for long term living quarters.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  13. #13
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    Cadets aren't Officers. I doubt you were let in the mess, so why were you cleaning rooms in the Passages?
    It was being used as Accom for FCA Officers back when you were in primary school. The Occasion was an All Army.
    I merely pointed out that I was cleaning the room, in case someone draw inference that I was somewhere I shouldn't be.

    Actually, there is a Good chance Jessup was a cadet at the time....


    But the point that was being derailed by me was, why is it Officers should EXPECT a higher standard of accomodation than NCOs? Why don't officers sleep in the same type of Billet as NCOs and other Enlisted, if not the same Billet? The Glen is the only place I have seen this happen, and some (In Particular RDF) clearly turn up their nose at the mere notion they may have to share space.

    If in the Cathal Brugha situation, the people going to college were NCOs, would the DF have provided portacabin accomodation for them, instead of bussing them to and from the DFTC daily?

    I noticed no accom for block release attending FAS...


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    Seriously :confused: You feel that higher ups, be that NCOs or officers shouldn't have better accommodation than their subordinates.

    Is this a socialist forum. Are you really Joe Higgins?

    The last appointment that I had where I inspected o/ranks living accommodation was in Sarsfield in Limerick a good few years ago. Most Ptes were sharing although some of the longer serving 'barrack rats' (I always hated that expression) had their own room. All the NCOs had their own room. Proper order as far as I'm concerned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    But the point that was being derailed by me was, why is it Officers should EXPECT a higher standard of accomodation than NCOs? Why don't officers sleep in the same type of Billet as NCOs and other Enlisted, if not the same Billet?
    Simple answer part one, because they're officers. I don't know any Army that is different even the communist ones.

    Secondly the separation is vital to reinforce the chain of command. Just like the messes. Ever notice why officers don't over stay their welcome if they're invited to the Ptes or NCOs mess. We leave so that you can get back to giving out about us and letting your hair down without the glare of an officer looking on.

  16. #16
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    I think the point thats been made in a non anti Officer capacity

    is why should there be any difference in accomodation for any rank

    an Officers room should be the same as a Privates and the same as an NCO

    thats not socialism- thats purely making sure that your men are treated as well as you are.

    I am not saying that the ranks should all be on the same lines- but they should be as near as the same as possible
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    I think the point thats been made in a non anti Officer capacity

    is why should there be any difference in accomodation for any rank

    an Officers room should be the same as a Privates and the same as an NCO

    thats not socialism- thats purely making sure that your men are treated as well as you are.

    I am not saying that the ranks should all be on the same lines- but they should be as near as the same as possible
    We're going to have to agree and to disagree on this one Hedgehog. As you get promoted and take on more responsibility I believe that both your pay and conditions should improve.

    We're obviously so far apart on the fundamentals I'm not even going to try and debate the specifics of the case in CBB. They were on a course as detailed by the chain of command so should have been suitably accommodated in the nearest military location. I've been involved in a similar battle for CIS technicians going to college in Dundalk which we won and rightly so.

    You won't believe this but there is a touch of cowardice when it comes to officer accommodation. Rather than considering it on its merits (which I understand you disagree with) the question is often asked 'How will PDFORRA react'. That's not right either and it works against o/ranks accommodation too. We can't improve officer accommodation because PDFORRA will go spare. We won't improve o/ranks accommodation either because PDFORRA stopped us from improving officer accommodation. No one wins.

    The worst example I saw of this was in NS HQ (a good few years ago). There's a fantastic building (they have a specific name for it, I can't remember), a small part of which is the officers mess but no living in accommodation. When I saw the officer accommodation I was appalled. Even though I was living in a kip in Collins Bks, this was worse. To make matters worse the officers were in o/ranks lines that were having a knock on affect on o/ranks having to cramp up.

    I asked why they hadn't included some officer accommodation in the Mess and the answer was that PDFORRA would have gone ballistic. So nobody won there. The Officers were living in shite and the o/ranks were cramped and living in shite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    I was just wondering where the Cadets were if FCA Officers were in there? It's nigh=on impossible to get as accomodation even now, when there's no Junior Class and the Senior class are in the Mess.
    There was a CISM event one year and all the Cadets were in the Mess for a a few weeks, beds in corridors etc.

    Yeah, the Cadet School lines would conceivably be free nine months of the year now. I'd be bit a bit more paranoid based on (see my previous posts) and could see the Cadets staying in the lines altogether and the Cadets Mess being lined up for something else

  19. #19
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    As you get promoted and take on more responsibility I believe that both your pay and conditions should improve.

    Look after the horse then the men then yourself- some little French guy once said that.

    whereas pay increases to reflect increased responsibility- would you really live in a palace whilst your troops live in a sty - or where should one draw the line and say rightie tighty.


    We're obviously so far apart on the fundamentals I'm not even going to try and debate the specifics of the case in CBB.
    Theres a lot of us on here from CBB can back up all thats said about the matter,
    I take it you were not in CBB during this turbulent times,


    You won't believe this but there is a touch of cowardice when it comes to officer accommodation. Rather than considering it on its merits (which I understand you disagree with) the question is often asked 'How will PDFORRA react'.
    Your right I dont beleive it

    most people on here know exaclty how much disdain Officers and the Dept treat and hold PDFORRA in.
    to say that Officers held back on doing something because PDFORRA might react adversly is wrong and kind of insulting

    who ever said that to you is lying to you

    The Officers were living in shite and the o/ranks were cramped and living in shite.
    The fact the men were living in shite is purely the fault of their Officers- i cant remember seeing or hearing about any Officer in NS HQ being locked up for brow beating FOCNS

    the fact the Officers were living in shite is the fault of FOCNS

    its a lazy and inaccurate reaction to blame PDFORRA

    remember shite rolls down hill- blame goes up.

    With every salute you receive you also revceive the responsibilty of looking after that person
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  20. #20
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    RACO cribbing about the "portakabins" was a ****ing disgrace. They were like mini palaces, probably nicer than any other living in accomodation available to Enlisted ranks or young Officers. Fully furnished, en suite and most importantly they housed the one person.

    They should've been brought to have a look at the 2 Bn living in accomodation to bring them back down to Earth. The place is an absolute shithole, the lads do their best to keep it respectable but **** me it's a kip. 3 or 4 lads to a room, pretty much the same rooms as they'd have used in Recruit training, communal bathrooms and a rec room that's sometimes open. All this accomodation for lads that are actually working during the week, rather than stumbling into the barracks at all hours enjoying the college life.

    And the Officers deserved their palaces and a better standard of living why? Cause they did an extra few months down the Cadet School, have a sword and a dulled cap badge when they had to do their actual job?

    Go ask my bollocks.
    Last edited by Hello Alaska; 21st August 2009 at 18:33.

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    PDFORRA are a factor in some decision making Hedgehog. If you don't believe that then why are they there? As I explained already the reality is the question is often asked 'How will PDFORRA react'.

    We can't improve officer accommodation because PDFORRA will go spare. We won't improve o/ranks accommodation either because PDFORRA stopped us from improving officer accommodation.

    Even your language shows the raw nerve that officer accommodation touches with o/ranks and PDFORRA in particular. Officers are not living in palaces and soldiers are not living in sties. Are you saying that PDFORRA wouldn't comment about improvement to officers accommodation? Maybe its the Irish thing with land and a perception that the officers are in the manor house while the o/ranks are living in squalor. That's simply not true.

    If you thought a bit laterally about 'a rising tide raising all boats' you could use any improvements in officer accommodation to push for a commensurate improvement in o/ranks accommodation. I'm sure the threat of a nice spread in a tabloid with pics of the spanking new officers mess beside the dated o/ranks lines would make sure that the any improvements are shared among all ranks. Currently, it is ending up in stalemate and nobody is benefiting.

  22. #22
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Mate your wrong in everything about that post:

    DO you really think that Senior Officers even consider the thoughts and feelings of PDFORRA

    thats simply not true, you know its not true and if your dont know its not true then your naieve.

    Walk into the Officers mess in CBB and see the lovely new carpet- supplied through the public purse
    now tell me that when the Bde EO decided I want a new carpet his first thought was
    ,
    What would PDFORRA think- not a chance

    Even your language shows the raw nerve that officer accommodation touches with o/ranks and PDFORRA in particular
    Simply not true either_ I was merely correcting your earlier post about the palatial "Portacabins"-

    Are you saying that PDFORRA wouldn't comment about improvement to officers accommodation?
    Its not in their remit and they are so busy with us that they havent the time to be trying to keep up with the jones.

    Do you not think that if public money was spent on officers accomodation and not other ranks accom- then it shouldnt be PDFORRA kicking up a stink

    it should be the people who have the honour of leading us kicking up a stink and demanding that their men are properly looked after
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hello Alaska View Post

    Cause they did an extra few months down the Cadet School, have a sword and a dulled cap badge when they had to do their actual job?
    No idea what the end of that last sentence means.

    We don't get a sword anymore but we do get a Presidential Commission and the responsibility that goes with that commission.

    Nobody should be living in a portakabin you empty head. If you could see beyond the length of your own nose you would see that if you create a precedent where officers in portakabins is ok then what will be acceptable for other ranks?

    Your reference about the state of the 2Bn lines is in direct contrast to my experience there as Orderly Officer and Hedgehogs post as well. If you're living in and want superior accommodation then get promoted. Even among the same rank when the best room opens up it goes to the senior man, ie the nosiest and worse room is usually the one nears the stairs, who get the the junior man. That's in the mess or the lines. Its the same in every army.

    Again they're not palaces. A number of the NCO rooms in CBB are superior to rooms in the officers mess. I've seen them both, have you? You really have a chip on your shoulder about officers but sure that the same game for centuries. Wallopers give out about officers and officers laugh at wallopers giving out.

    The old a few extra months in the Cadet School jibe, never heard that before With rapier wit like that you should go for the Cadets yourself. Even now the Cadets is longer than 2 star, 3 star, Pots and Std Cse combined.

    I make no apology for officers or anyone receiving privileges with their rank. That's how a chain of command works. They've earned it.

  24. #24
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Nobody should be living in a portakabin you empty head
    The young Officers should be sent back to the DFTC and be up at 7 every morning for the transit- thats the simplest soloution,

    but wait they wanted to live in Dublin- didnt they.

    and I doubt you ever actually saw the accom- they are not portakabins for 2 main reasons:

    1. they are not a portakabin product

    2. they are purpose built temporary accom- they are in truth a good spot to love- they would also be better than the rooms in the Mess.

    you empty head
    Attack the post- not the poster-

    If you could see beyond the length of your own nose y
    I dont know how you know him but by saying that everyone can ID HA- he is very sensitive about the nose God gave him

    I make no apology for officers or anyone receiving privileges with their rank. That's how a chain of command works. They've earned it.
    I think it all comes down to this sentenance- they earned it,

    How did they earn it?
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Mate your wrong in everything about that post:
    DO you really think that Senior Officers even consider the thoughts and feelings of PDFORRA

    They do. If they didn't then why are PDFORRA there at all?


    Walk into the Officers mess in CBB and see the lovely new carpet- supplied through the public purse

    The Public Rooms in all messes are a disgrace as far as I'm concerned. A real 'fur coat and no knickers' approach. The Ptes Mess in CBB is way over the top while the lines could be improved. Check that carpet thing out with the Mess Sgt. That carpet may have been paid for by mess funds; i.e. subs from the officers. I'm telling you that there is a real fear of how that expenditure will be perceived. They imagine a headline in The Star - "Soldiers are four to room while officers are get fancy new carpet" If that's out of their own money then it can be defended. But if you twist the example then it means no one gets a new carpet.


    Its not in their remit and they are so busy with us that they havent the time to be trying to keep up with the jones.


    Its legitimate, if not a bit short sighted for PDFORRA to try and further their own cause by using all means to leverage their own position. The threat of bad PR is one such tool and I know from experience that they are well practiced in that art. So are RACO but PDFORRA aren't altar boys you know?

    it should be the people who have the honour of leading us kicking up a stink and demanding that their men are properly looked after

    I never known any issue other than this to produce such emotion and vitriol among o/ranks in all my years of service. It would possibly take investment of the entire capital budget exclusively in o/ranks accommodation to an extent where is was vastly superior to that of officers before €1 euro being spent on officers accommodation would not result in uproar. The officers are not going to back down on that one and let the tail wag the dog so what we have is stalemate and nothing improves.

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