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  • #16
    I think the point thats been made in a non anti Officer capacity

    is why should there be any difference in accomodation for any rank

    an Officers room should be the same as a Privates and the same as an NCO

    thats not socialism- thats purely making sure that your men are treated as well as you are.

    I am not saying that the ranks should all be on the same lines- but they should be as near as the same as possible
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
      I think the point thats been made in a non anti Officer capacity

      is why should there be any difference in accomodation for any rank

      an Officers room should be the same as a Privates and the same as an NCO

      thats not socialism- thats purely making sure that your men are treated as well as you are.

      I am not saying that the ranks should all be on the same lines- but they should be as near as the same as possible
      We're going to have to agree and to disagree on this one Hedgehog. As you get promoted and take on more responsibility I believe that both your pay and conditions should improve.

      We're obviously so far apart on the fundamentals I'm not even going to try and debate the specifics of the case in CBB. They were on a course as detailed by the chain of command so should have been suitably accommodated in the nearest military location. I've been involved in a similar battle for CIS technicians going to college in Dundalk which we won and rightly so.

      You won't believe this but there is a touch of cowardice when it comes to officer accommodation. Rather than considering it on its merits (which I understand you disagree with) the question is often asked 'How will PDFORRA react'. That's not right either and it works against o/ranks accommodation too. We can't improve officer accommodation because PDFORRA will go spare. We won't improve o/ranks accommodation either because PDFORRA stopped us from improving officer accommodation. No one wins.

      The worst example I saw of this was in NS HQ (a good few years ago). There's a fantastic building (they have a specific name for it, I can't remember), a small part of which is the officers mess but no living in accommodation. When I saw the officer accommodation I was appalled. Even though I was living in a kip in Collins Bks, this was worse. To make matters worse the officers were in o/ranks lines that were having a knock on affect on o/ranks having to cramp up.

      I asked why they hadn't included some officer accommodation in the Mess and the answer was that PDFORRA would have gone ballistic. So nobody won there. The Officers were living in shite and the o/ranks were cramped and living in shite.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by kermit
        I was just wondering where the Cadets were if FCA Officers were in there? It's nigh=on impossible to get as accomodation even now, when there's no Junior Class and the Senior class are in the Mess.
        There was a CISM event one year and all the Cadets were in the Mess for a a few weeks, beds in corridors etc.

        Yeah, the Cadet School lines would conceivably be free nine months of the year now. I'd be bit a bit more paranoid based on (see my previous posts) and could see the Cadets staying in the lines altogether and the Cadets Mess being lined up for something else

        Comment


        • #19
          As you get promoted and take on more responsibility I believe that both your pay and conditions should improve.

          Look after the horse then the men then yourself- some little French guy once said that.

          whereas pay increases to reflect increased responsibility- would you really live in a palace whilst your troops live in a sty - or where should one draw the line and say rightie tighty.


          We're obviously so far apart on the fundamentals I'm not even going to try and debate the specifics of the case in CBB.
          Theres a lot of us on here from CBB can back up all thats said about the matter,
          I take it you were not in CBB during this turbulent times,


          You won't believe this but there is a touch of cowardice when it comes to officer accommodation. Rather than considering it on its merits (which I understand you disagree with) the question is often asked 'How will PDFORRA react'.
          Your right I dont beleive it

          most people on here know exaclty how much disdain Officers and the Dept treat and hold PDFORRA in.
          to say that Officers held back on doing something because PDFORRA might react adversly is wrong and kind of insulting

          who ever said that to you is lying to you

          The Officers were living in shite and the o/ranks were cramped and living in shite.
          The fact the men were living in shite is purely the fault of their Officers- i cant remember seeing or hearing about any Officer in NS HQ being locked up for brow beating FOCNS

          the fact the Officers were living in shite is the fault of FOCNS

          its a lazy and inaccurate reaction to blame PDFORRA

          remember shite rolls down hill- blame goes up.

          With every salute you receive you also revceive the responsibilty of looking after that person
          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
          Are full of passionate intensity.

          Comment


          • #20
            RACO cribbing about the "portakabins" was a ****ing disgrace. They were like mini palaces, probably nicer than any other living in accomodation available to Enlisted ranks or young Officers. Fully furnished, en suite and most importantly they housed the one person.

            They should've been brought to have a look at the 2 Bn living in accomodation to bring them back down to Earth. The place is an absolute shithole, the lads do their best to keep it respectable but **** me it's a kip. 3 or 4 lads to a room, pretty much the same rooms as they'd have used in Recruit training, communal bathrooms and a rec room that's sometimes open. All this accomodation for lads that are actually working during the week, rather than stumbling into the barracks at all hours enjoying the college life.

            And the Officers deserved their palaces and a better standard of living why? Cause they did an extra few months down the Cadet School, have a sword and a dulled cap badge when they had to do their actual job?

            Go ask my bollocks.
            Last edited by Hello Alaska; 21 August 2009, 19:33.

            Comment


            • #21
              PDFORRA are a factor in some decision making Hedgehog. If you don't believe that then why are they there? As I explained already the reality is the question is often asked 'How will PDFORRA react'.

              We can't improve officer accommodation because PDFORRA will go spare. We won't improve o/ranks accommodation either because PDFORRA stopped us from improving officer accommodation.

              Even your language shows the raw nerve that officer accommodation touches with o/ranks and PDFORRA in particular. Officers are not living in palaces and soldiers are not living in sties. Are you saying that PDFORRA wouldn't comment about improvement to officers accommodation? Maybe its the Irish thing with land and a perception that the officers are in the manor house while the o/ranks are living in squalor. That's simply not true.

              If you thought a bit laterally about 'a rising tide raising all boats' you could use any improvements in officer accommodation to push for a commensurate improvement in o/ranks accommodation. I'm sure the threat of a nice spread in a tabloid with pics of the spanking new officers mess beside the dated o/ranks lines would make sure that the any improvements are shared among all ranks. Currently, it is ending up in stalemate and nobody is benefiting.

              Comment


              • #22
                Mate your wrong in everything about that post:

                DO you really think that Senior Officers even consider the thoughts and feelings of PDFORRA

                thats simply not true, you know its not true and if your dont know its not true then your naieve.

                Walk into the Officers mess in CBB and see the lovely new carpet- supplied through the public purse
                now tell me that when the Bde EO decided I want a new carpet his first thought was
                ,
                What would PDFORRA think- not a chance

                Even your language shows the raw nerve that officer accommodation touches with o/ranks and PDFORRA in particular
                Simply not true either_ I was merely correcting your earlier post about the palatial "Portacabins"-

                Are you saying that PDFORRA wouldn't comment about improvement to officers accommodation?
                Its not in their remit and they are so busy with us that they havent the time to be trying to keep up with the jones.

                Do you not think that if public money was spent on officers accomodation and not other ranks accom- then it shouldnt be PDFORRA kicking up a stink

                it should be the people who have the honour of leading us kicking up a stink and demanding that their men are properly looked after
                Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                Are full of passionate intensity.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post

                  Cause they did an extra few months down the Cadet School, have a sword and a dulled cap badge when they had to do their actual job?
                  No idea what the end of that last sentence means.

                  We don't get a sword anymore but we do get a Presidential Commission and the responsibility that goes with that commission.

                  Nobody should be living in a portakabin you empty head. If you could see beyond the length of your own nose you would see that if you create a precedent where officers in portakabins is ok then what will be acceptable for other ranks?

                  Your reference about the state of the 2Bn lines is in direct contrast to my experience there as Orderly Officer and Hedgehogs post as well. If you're living in and want superior accommodation then get promoted. Even among the same rank when the best room opens up it goes to the senior man, ie the nosiest and worse room is usually the one nears the stairs, who get the the junior man. That's in the mess or the lines. Its the same in every army.

                  Again they're not palaces. A number of the NCO rooms in CBB are superior to rooms in the officers mess. I've seen them both, have you? You really have a chip on your shoulder about officers but sure that the same game for centuries. Wallopers give out about officers and officers laugh at wallopers giving out.

                  The old a few extra months in the Cadet School jibe, never heard that before With rapier wit like that you should go for the Cadets yourself. Even now the Cadets is longer than 2 star, 3 star, Pots and Std Cse combined.

                  I make no apology for officers or anyone receiving privileges with their rank. That's how a chain of command works. They've earned it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Nobody should be living in a portakabin you empty head
                    The young Officers should be sent back to the DFTC and be up at 7 every morning for the transit- thats the simplest soloution,

                    but wait they wanted to live in Dublin- didnt they.

                    and I doubt you ever actually saw the accom- they are not portakabins for 2 main reasons:

                    1. they are not a portakabin product

                    2. they are purpose built temporary accom- they are in truth a good spot to love- they would also be better than the rooms in the Mess.

                    you empty head
                    Attack the post- not the poster-

                    If you could see beyond the length of your own nose y
                    I dont know how you know him but by saying that everyone can ID HA- he is very sensitive about the nose God gave him

                    I make no apology for officers or anyone receiving privileges with their rank. That's how a chain of command works. They've earned it.
                    I think it all comes down to this sentenance- they earned it,

                    How did they earn it?
                    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                    Are full of passionate intensity.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
                      Mate your wrong in everything about that post:
                      DO you really think that Senior Officers even consider the thoughts and feelings of PDFORRA

                      They do. If they didn't then why are PDFORRA there at all?


                      Walk into the Officers mess in CBB and see the lovely new carpet- supplied through the public purse

                      The Public Rooms in all messes are a disgrace as far as I'm concerned. A real 'fur coat and no knickers' approach. The Ptes Mess in CBB is way over the top while the lines could be improved. Check that carpet thing out with the Mess Sgt. That carpet may have been paid for by mess funds; i.e. subs from the officers. I'm telling you that there is a real fear of how that expenditure will be perceived. They imagine a headline in The Star - "Soldiers are four to room while officers are get fancy new carpet" If that's out of their own money then it can be defended. But if you twist the example then it means no one gets a new carpet.


                      Its not in their remit and they are so busy with us that they havent the time to be trying to keep up with the jones.


                      Its legitimate, if not a bit short sighted for PDFORRA to try and further their own cause by using all means to leverage their own position. The threat of bad PR is one such tool and I know from experience that they are well practiced in that art. So are RACO but PDFORRA aren't altar boys you know?

                      it should be the people who have the honour of leading us kicking up a stink and demanding that their men are properly looked after

                      I never known any issue other than this to produce such emotion and vitriol among o/ranks in all my years of service. It would possibly take investment of the entire capital budget exclusively in o/ranks accommodation to an extent where is was vastly superior to that of officers before €1 euro being spent on officers accommodation would not result in uproar. The officers are not going to back down on that one and let the tail wag the dog so what we have is stalemate and nothing improves.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hello Alaska View Post
                        They should've been brought to have a look at the 2 Bn living in accomodation to bring them back down to Earth. The place is an absolute shithole, the lads do their best to keep it respectable but **** me it's a kip. 3 or 4 lads to a room, pretty much the same rooms as they'd have used in Recruit training, communal bathrooms and a rec room that's sometimes open. All this accomodation for lads that are actually working during the week, rather than stumbling into the barracks at all hours enjoying the college life.
                        Your lucky down in the Brugha.
                        When I passed out last year I was put into a 8 man room, one of the rooms we used in 2-3*. There was only one bathroom on our floor.
                        You have a rec room?
                        Last edited by Border Bunny; 22 August 2009, 00:50.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          IMHO:

                          Ideally privates should be with their section, or half section. Corporals should either be with the section (not ideally!!) or sharing a room with the other corporals in the section. Sergeants either sharing room with others in coy or individual room. SNCOs same as sergeants. YOs should be individual or 2/3 to a room.

                          The reasoning behind this isn't so that the privates can see the other mess, it is so that the the NCOs/officers can:
                          - moan about the privates and vice versa in peace
                          - prepare the lessons etc in peace

                          Also very importantly the NCO have less time to rest than privates, their day doesn't finish at the time the programme ends!! The same should be true for the officers.

                          ----------------------
                          I've done an overnight in CBB, think it was transit accomodiation, just vacated by recruits I think. It was comfort, clean, secure and en-suite (ie you didn't need to leave the billet). But and this is a big butt.... it was/is extremely cramped (there were around 12+ bunk beds in a very small space. For a couple of weeks it would be ok but 16+ weeks!!!


                          Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                          The Sam Browne issue was top of RDFRA's agenda and took up huge time at the conference. You can justify an accommodation issue on it merits, the Sam Browne issue was a trivial matter.

                          The fact that the Sam Browne issue was pursued so vigorously by RDFRA trivialised the organisation in the eyes of many and reinforced the perception that any issue raised by them was not to be taken seriously.
                          The way it works it is a unit comes up with a motion (in this case Sam Browne's), that motion was one of probably 20-30 motions at the conference. It was discussed for maybe 5-10 mins tops (if I remember rightly it was a bit contraversial so took a bit longer). The conference voted for it and it became RDFRA policy.

                          It was mentioned in passing in one of the speeches (3 seconds) and as I said the COS stood up.

                          It was not and never had been top of the agenda AFAIK.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Check that carpet thing out with the Mess Sgt. That carpet may have been paid for by mess funds; i.e. subs from the officers.
                            Why do you think I am quoting that particualr item- also have a look at the front "garden" of teh Officers Mess CBB.- mess subs did NOT pay for them-

                            Have a look also at Sarsfield house or Nashville as its now known.


                            PDFORRA do not worry senior Officers- if you think so then mate you havent a clue.

                            If they didn't then why are PDFORRA there at all?
                            A mate of mine told me about being in Bosnia and chatting with Brits about what we do and what they do etc- the subject of PDFORRA came up and my mate who was a Bk Rep gave the full low down- he asked the Brits did they have something similar

                            and they said no- because most of the stuff that PDFORRA do for us- is done for them by their Officers.

                            We pay a % of our wages so our Officers have less to do for us-

                            in reality we are idiots.

                            Mate none of this is an anti Jessup or Anti Officer rant- sometimes unpleasent stuff comes up,
                            I am sure you have loads and loads of my NCO's/Pte's drive me mad type stuff
                            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                            Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                            The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                            The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                            The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                            Are full of passionate intensity.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I am all for segrogation of ranks. I just don't see why certain ranks should expect a higher class of accomodation because of their rank.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                The "prefabs" we are talking about are not "prefabs" in the traditional sense they are more like a container.

                                Also are the messes not self funding? If they are getting done up it comes from the mess accounts?

                                Comment

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