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  1. #51
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I think people may be taking up what you define as "standard of accomodiation" wrongly.

    If you are thinking similarly to me... the standard of accomodiation is the fact that it is clean, serviceable, in good repair, has adequate light & heat, access to ablutions, no overly cramped conditions etc etc

    Others may be think you mean that it has a carpet, fancy curtains, etc

  2. #52
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    jessop thanks for the reply and sorry if you had covered it already with someone else (as stated Im new here)

    Youve made valid arguments and for the record in my opinion no NCO should ever undermine an officer, its plain unprofessional. However a newly commissioned officer should also be professional enough to realise that sometimes his NCO's do know more than him, and that the knowledge they have gained could quite possibly be from experience.

    In relation to the conditioning etc on a cadet course, believe me when I say its not so different on a Pot NCO's course. Give the guy enough rope etc

    I am and always will be of the opinion that you dont take promotion to make friends so I understand where your coming from on that one

    I apologise for being off thread (as you so quickly pointed out Jessop )

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I think people may be taking up what you define as "standard of accomodiation" wrongly.

    If you are thinking similarly to me... the standard of accomodiation is the fact that it is clean, serviceable, in good repair, has adequate light & heat, access to ablutions, no overly cramped conditions etc etc

    Others may be think you mean that it has a carpet, fancy curtains, etc
    Well I kinda mean both but agree that the emphasis should be on the former. I think most of that is currently there with the exception of the 'cramped' angle. That has a lot to do with a scale of issue not being enforced. Barrack rat Ptes or Cpls in single rooms and other Pte and Cpls living on top of each other. The big thing with higher rank I feel is the privacy issue. Your own door that you can lock.

    As per kit out, there should not be any opulence at any rank and in my experience in Ireland in the accommodation there was not. The public rooms thing is a pet hate of mine. McKee Officers Mess being the prime example. You should see the state of the rooms upstairs with the exception of those on the middle landing where you have all the Cols and trust me they are far from opulent or palaces either. Give me the smallest room in CBB anytime instead and McKee is supposed to be the DFHQ Mess!

    However, when you talk about fit out I think there should be some differences too.

    Sgts and Lts in small single rooms with no fixed furniture and no sink (think of the Cdt Sch lines type room).

    CS's, CQs, Captains in slightly larger single rooms with maybe a sink in the room, and fitted wardrobes etc. but sharing toilets and showers (think of CBB officers mess).

    BQs BSMs, Comdts and above might progress to an ensuite (think of the eight CBB 'ultra billets' at the end of the mess).

    I don't know how realistic that is based on what is there already. Maybe a lot of single rooms have sinks already so I'm not suggesting they get taken out because its a Sgt's or Lt's room - but with Army 'logic' you never know :wink:

    Something along those lines with a noticeable improvement as you ascend the ranks. Start from the bottom up but I still believe in the principle of better living in accommodation with rank.
    Last edited by Jessup; 22nd August 2009 at 12:30.

  4. #54
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Any DF pers if detailed for a course should be provided with accommodation in the nearest military post.
    In the case of the portakabin kids:

    1- They were based in their home units
    2- they asked to move to Dublin- even though they were told that no accomodation existed for them (perhaps they had heard about the City west scam)
    3- As far as I am aware- 4 Years of eager young college students had been bussed up and down from the DFTC quiet successfully-
    4- these were lads studying logistics and hotel management/catering- what is very ironic is logisticians and hotel managers couldnt realise that accom couldnt be just pulled out of thin air.


    If the transport solution is the way forward then apply it to all ranks.

    A soldier in the DFTC doing the chefs course in DIT Cathal Brugha Street shouldn't be accommodated in McKee or CBB. He should be driven up and down every day or give him PTR at massive cost to the state versus accommodation.
    Thats silly and spiteful- you will find lads on cooks course were billeted in transit accom- I dont think young officers would have been put in transit accom ( sure wouldnt the fabric of society be rent asunder)


    PDFORRA are part of the agenda. There's a section in DFHQ to deal with them for Gods sake. It's called C&A!
    Ah C& A I was wondering when you would get around to this- C&A or as its called No and No

    Have a read of the PDFORRA mag and they list everything that goes through C& A-

    but very little is approved by C&A most then goes to the next level for a proper decision.

    C&A is good for one thing- we now have an extra full Col on the books and an extra 2 Lt Cols.
    you have to admire thinking like this-

    lets be straight- NO repeat NO senior Officer is worried about what PDFORRA thinks- dont fool yourself or try and fool us on this one,

    As for Generals and Nashville. There's not an Army in the universe where Generals don't have perks. He was the 2i/c of the DF for crying out loud. I think he's earned more than a scratcher in the lines with three other bods.
    when you say more than a scratcher in the lines with the other bods- how do you determine how much more- next time your in CBB have a look at the palatial (yes ) setting for what was his gaff- have a look at the lovely garden

    then when you think he is entitled to his perk- have a look at the living out lines for 2 Bn and 2 Cav persons-

    what leader in his right mind would put his own comfort before the comfort of his own men-

    There's not an Army in the universe where Generals don't have perks
    Perks should be he gets his tea handed to him in the morning- mate the Raj era is long dead


    Take officers out of it for a second because I feel most posters can't see beyond that red mist.
    WHy do you always use the defence - sure they are anti Officer- that a Sinn Fein tactic- your obviously a very intellegent person- so please dont try and pretend we (or at least me) is anti Officer.

    I love really love most Officers in the Irish Defence Forces.- especially some of the birds.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
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  5. #55
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    The organisation has to believe in the system.
    . One of my first Pln Sgts was an awful walloper, constantly undermining me and always with the smart comments but nothing that you could charge him with.
    I think we are all in agreement here

    no matter how young /red headed/culchie/female/pimply faced or incompetent the 2/Lt is on arriving to the Unit- He is still the Boss-
    What he says goes- as NCO's our job is to help him and that help also includes steering him
    to the path of righteousness.

    The blame for every scorpy cranky bitchy COmdt lies purely at the foot of an incompetent smartarse idiot NCO who made the Comdt the way he was.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  6. #56
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    Your last sentence there hedgehog is ridiculous.

  7. #57
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurryupandwait View Post
    Your last sentence there hedgehog is ridiculous.
    Why?
    Its probably a bit to precise with the wording every

    but the snetiment is right

    but for you I will rephrase it:

    the blame for a certain percentage of scorpy arsed Comdts lies squarely at the feet of

    incompetent, lazy and waster NCO's.
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  8. #58
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Jessup,

    In relation to standards in accomadation and space availble to personsI really thing you should have a look at a Peacock Class Patrol vessel and the ratings accomadation to see how bad it can get...and within forty feet you have people living in singular accomadation units because of a pay grade..

    Rank may have its priveleges but its doesn't give one group the right to live in realtive comfort while the rest live and very confined and restricted living quarters with no privacy.


    The fact there was an outcry because a group of junior officers living in cramped conditions where as enlisted are expected to live in similar conditions that underpin the whole situation. Ok you got paid for your rank, took the job in hand , but it doesn't give the army the right to not provide adequate accomadation for enlisted young men, just because they have a lower pay grade and status within the army.

    On the topic of NCOs undermining officers,I would hope that the officer would be of strong enough charachter to be able to diffuse this.

    Its actually a form of bullying and harrasment and is intolerable, if the army can't provide the officer or any other individual with suitable mechanisms , and we all know they are in place, to deal with this the army has faied its memebers.

    If an officer can't find away around this to protect himslef maybe he should reconsider his position within the DF as if he is not in a position to protect himself , how can he as a line manager ever expect to be able to fend for his men.

    I would take the view point that many young officer having come through the cadet school and posted to certain positions are very immature and not exactly worldly wise when it comes to dealing with grizzled old NCOs who may have a chip or their shoulder.

    If youngofficer finds himslef within this position then the service has failed him, but then again he is no better off than most guys directly out of recruits as often they find themselves in similar situations without the rank to be able to sort these problems out.

    i can honestly say that there is a level of intimidation from both sides of thefence and it should not be tolerated,(a) the individual involved must have belief in the system to change the circumstances should he report them and (b) the system should ahve the faith in the individual to support them should the need arise.
    To my mind (b) is more often that not failing.

    People are more often than not interested in progressing there careers than looking after the needs of the individual, which begs the question are the right individuals been selected to hold authourity if they can't support their charges.

    Carreer vs Responsibilty over their charges. Of course the party line will be upheld of equality to all men and systems to protect the disadvantaged..but as George Orwell cited ..some are more equal than others.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    Why?
    Its probably a bit to precise with the wording every

    but the snetiment is right

    but for you I will rephrase it:

    the blame for a certain percentage of scorpy arsed Comdts lies squarely at the feet of

    incompetent, lazy and waster NCO's.
    The quality of NCOs has improved dramatically Hedgehog so if we accept your theory lets hope that results in consistently better officers too. There have been some inevitable teething problems with some Celtic Tiger graduates of the Cdt Sch but I would say that about those that came after me wouldn't I? The numbers of applicants was down (until this week ) so this had an effect on quality. There's an obvious time lag with recruits from the same era making it to NCO so lets hope there aren't the same problems there.

    I'll tell what the next big challenge is with NCOs. Its for another thread I think. What do you do when we get to a situation when lads are making CS and CQ in their mid to late thirties and BSM and BQ in their mid to late forties?

    That's all well and good for them but it puts a cork in the bottle and blocks that vacancy for everyone behind them for decades. Time to seriously consider introducing the Warrant Officer rank to push on those guys and let a good turnover flow behind them. There's a shortage of Captains anyway. It wouldn't affect officers promotions. Ideal posts would be barrack QMs, Training Depots etc. Any thoughts out there?

  10. #60
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Any thoughts out there?
    Whats the point..you see to have all the answers..the rest of us will just continue to read your soapbox solutions
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  11. #61
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    The quality of NCOs has improved dramatically Hedgehog so if we accept your theory lets hope that results in consistently better officers too.
    I would say its the oppisite

    a % of the NCO's now are those who got in on Shreenans transistion year experiment
    they wereent great Recruits and couldnt be got rid of
    now they are NCO's

    Some not all. ( My opinion)
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post

    but it doesn't give the army the right to not provide adequate accomadation for enlisted young men, just because they have a lower pay grade and status within the army.

    On the topic of NCOs undermining officers,I would hope that the officer would be of strong enough charachter to be able to diffuse this.
    I'm not equipped to comment on the NS but I would put your ships in line with the Army o/seas which is a completely different ball game. I shared with my Pln Sgt in UNIFIL for four months (but rest of the lads were four or six to a room). In KFOR we had no choice and no crib with the NATO SOP of three or four junior officers to a container. Majors were two per container and only Lt Cols and above had their own digs. My posts here are more linked to 'on shore' accommodation. I think the Irish camp was a bit more cushy than a lot of the other contingents in KFOR that for all ranks.

    Everyone should have adequate accommodation but some of the comparisons here were ridiculous. The old 'any Private would love to live in those officer portakabins' argument. It would be a bad sign for any military organisation where those in subordinate ranks would not take the accommodation of superiors above their own. A Pte and a Sgt should both have adequate accommodation. Where most seem to differ with me here is that I believe that accommodation should be appropriate to their rank. EG I don't think its wrong that the Sgts accommodation would be 'better' than the Ptes?

    As regards the undermining thing I think that is for another thread - (I'm still new to all the protocols here) YO's might appear cocky but most of your formative years is spent second guessing every decision you make. The fact that I had a walloper trying to 'break' me made me stronger. For other YO's a more mentor type of NCO might work. I certainly had more of the latter but the shitty time with the first guy probably did me more good if that's not too perverse of a concept :confused: On balance I think it works out ok?
    Last edited by Jessup; 23rd August 2009 at 12:48.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    I would say its the oppisite

    a % of the NCO's now are those who got in on Shreenans transistion year experiment
    they wereent great Recruits and couldnt be got rid of
    now they are NCO's

    Some not all. ( My opinion)
    Even I'll defend the NCOs on that one. Ok maybe the Cpl situation is bad but I'm out a few years now so haven't had the pleasure. It can't be all that bad?

    But what about the Sgts and above. There used to be some awful lemons but nowadays with promotion boards etc. Is it really that bad?

    You're in CBB. I don't think I ever did a 'Bde Lie Down' there with a bad Sgt? It's not an in depth examination of the standard I know but you can get the overall vibe easy enough.

  14. #64
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    This is spiralling downwards guys and if ive contributed to that then i apologise.

    For Hedgehog and Jessop I wouldnt like either of you to think that Im defening all NCO's as the saviour of the DF and slating all Offrs. Not the case.

    As I came up through the system I worked with other NCO's that putting it bluntly, I was embarrassed to say they held the same rank as me.
    By equal measure I worked with Officers who couldnt manage a piss up in a brewery and I also worked with Officers that would have excelled irrespective of what Army they were in, really top class guys.

    My initial point now seems lost in all of this. I do not belive that gaining your commision or receiving your stripes gets you respect. It simply puts you in a position that if you do your job and do it well without suffering from God syndrome, you can over time gain the respect of those you command. Again speaking from experience, too many of our Offrs and NCO's seem to either forget this point or they never understood it in the first place. Either way it means that the system dosent work to its full potential, and that is a shame given our status as a professional army.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Whats the point..you see to have all the answers..the rest of us will just continue to read your soapbox solutions
    Burn!!

    I'm firm in my position on Accommodation, DF going to Afghanistan and the RDF o/seas. You have your soapbox, I have mine. What's wrong? Are you going to go away with your ball and I'm not allowed to play anymore.

    I've offered insights on the Army Officers thread for those who were asking re the Cadets in particular.

    I think that's it on the threads I've posted on.

    On the Warrant Officer topic I think it will become a real problem soon. I have an open mind but would like to know what the opinions are of those who are affected by it. Or maybe they aren't affected by it at all and are happy that the BSM post in X Bn is blocked for 15 years?

  16. #66
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    I'll tell what the next big challenge is with NCOs. Its for another thread I think. What do you do when we get to a situation when lads are making CS and CQ in their mid to late thirties and BSM and BQ in their mid to late forties?

    That's all well and good for them but it puts a cork in the bottle and blocks that vacancy for everyone behind them for decades. Time to seriously consider introducing the Warrant Officer rank to push on those guys and let a good turnover flow behind them. There's a shortage of Captains anyway. It wouldn't affect officers promotions. Ideal posts would be barrack QMs, Training Depots etc. Any thoughts out there?
    Do what the Brits do

    The military is a young mans game. May SNCOs in the UK become late entry officers (short course and your a captain).

  17. #67
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    In the US, the warrant officer is a mainly technical role. You do basic, and bypass the lower enlisted ranks to become warrant, but the master sgt is still the senior NCO.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  18. #68
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I'm firm in my position on Accommodation, DF going to Afghanistan and the RDF o/seas. You have your soapbox, I have mine. What's wrong? Are you going to go away with your ball and I'm not allowed to play anymore.
    No not at all, we'll agree to disagree, its never going to be solved and all thats offered is opinions.

    As for the sarcasm,when an oppertunity presents itself its custom and practise to open up with both barrels and wait for the results.

    I've presented my point, you have yours we come from different ends of the spectrum and possibly there isn't even a middle ground to agree on.Thats life. No point in me further discussing my opinions on the subject but I'll continue to read yours, bearing in mind where you came from.

    My input to the discussion is the ideal as opposed to the reality and by default the reality wins. Can accept that .Others will continue the discussion but not me unless it reverts to something I have a specific insight into.

    Continue please, your doing beautifully.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  19. #69
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    Dead on. We'll imagine that we've had a cyber hug and made up so :wink:

    Here's a genuine idea albeit based on my premise of accommodation improving with rank. What about RACO and PDFORRA coming up with a joint strategy on the policy? If we establish the parity system I suggested then both organisations are helping each other from Sgt up to Comdt. Then the two of them do some bartering on how they can support each other on the Ptes and Cpls for PDFORRA and Lt Cols and above for RACO.

    The Ptes and Cpls can't have a standard (as in space, fittings etc. NOT heating and hot water) too far below the Sgt/Lt and the Lt Cols and above can't be miles ahead of BSMs/Comdts?

    There will be more movement on barracks as a result of Board Snip Nua and the new White Papers in the short to medium term so two organisations singing from the same hymn sheet might make some progress. There is a level of stalemate going on at the moment. Why has the Capital Budget on all the new buildings mostly excluded living in accommodation to date. The ways things are going having digs in Bks will be one of the few 'perks' left for any rank in the DF.
    Last edited by Jessup; 23rd August 2009 at 18:24.

  20. #70
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Why not include the 3rd representative association, RDFRA also ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  21. #71
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    That was an unintentional oversight.

    Maybe to keep a narrower scope? Concentrate on living in, not training accommodation. I'm very modular and look at things in phases. You might say that's unambitious.

    EG Get RDF specialists o/seas first then push on from there to others

    EG Get the living accommodation sorted first, push on from there for training accommodation (In the training context I'd prefer if that was more about facilities rather then where you rest your head)

  22. #72
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    Bearing in mind Murph's naval experience, this is a DF which in fairly recent memory, gave it's NS recruits significantly worse accomodation than car thieves and other assorted scum and had to be dragged into the 20th century by the Prison Service. My own experience is that the DF is always reactive to an accomodation need than proactive, especially for transiting personnel.
    regards
    GttC

  23. #73
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    The current standard of accomodation in the Naval Base is second to none in my opinion. This follows a long refurbishment program.

  24. #74
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    Hi there,
    The thing about DF accomodation is that old and new lived side by side, ie, modern buildings with decent facilities and ancient kips that weren't fit for cattle.We, as aptces in Baldonnel in the mid-80s, had a brand-new Hostel fitted with the best of stuff, which was alongside a 1930s Hostel which bore a strong resemblance to a prison wing.The New Hostel was meant to be for aptces only but one half of the new building was rapidly given over to cadets and visiting officers. Over the years, Baldonnel has had a huge amount of money invested in it and most of the old buildings, especially the ancient hangars are either gone or thoroughly modernised. A great change from our first dining hall which was a rat-infested tin hut that was so bad, visiting units refused to eat in it and it was declared derelict and demolished, long after it had actually been declared unfit for purpose.On the other hand, for years, the place was unable to cope with sudden demands for accomodation, especially when security operations demanded room for a sudden influx of "The Wing" and all their gear. Even at annual air show time, the Don always seemed to be caught by surprise and ended up scattering visitors far and wide.
    regards
    Gttc

  25. #75
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggie View Post
    The current standard of accomodation in the Naval Base is second to none in my opinion. This follows a long refurbishment program.
    It could also be to do with the fact their officers spend more time overseas on courses with other Navies, and of course many of the senior officers were not products of the Cadet School system.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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