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  • #31
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    The "prefabs" we are talking about are not "prefabs" in the traditional sense they are more like a container.

    Also are the messes not self funding? If they are getting done up it comes from the mess accounts?
    Your right on point 1

    and you should be right on point 2- but alas thats not the case
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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    • #32
      [QUOTE=Jessup;265327]...we do get a Presidential Commission and the responsibility that goes with that commission. QUOTE]

      and one of those responsibilities is the welfare of the troops, not to whinge and whine about individual accomodation in Dublin when troops are not getting similar.

      Now get off your horse (and stay off it).

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
        The young Officers should be sent back to the DFTC and be up at 7 every morning for the transit- thats the simplest soloution,

        but wait they wanted to live in Dublin- didnt they.
        Any DF pers if detailed for a course should be provided with accommodation in the nearest military post. If the transport solution is the way forward then apply it to all ranks.

        A soldier in the DFTC doing the chefs course in DIT Cathal Brugha Street shouldn't be accommodated in McKee or CBB. He should be driven up and down every day or give him PTR at massive cost to the state versus accommodation.

        Soldiers in Limerick on the CIS technicians course in Cork IT shouldn't be accommodated in Collins Bks but commute daily at the States expense.

        Soldiers in Monaghan, McKee or CBB attending the CIS technicians course in Dundalk IT should't be accommodated in Dundalk. To fully apply your logic the transit could start in CBB at 0600 call into McKee at 0630, then Monaghan at 0730 and on to Dundalk.

        Of course this doesn't happen because its idiotic. Take the officer out of the equation and you'd see that. If the o/ranks in the above examples found that their accommodation in McKee, CBB, Collins or Dundalk was inferior to others of equal rank they would have a valid case just as the officers in CBB did.

        Originally posted by hedgehog View Post

        I think it all comes down to this sentenance- they earned it,

        How did they earn it?
        They've earned it by successfully applying for a Cadetship through a highly competitive process, by completing a rigorous scheme of training (of which much of the early stages is assessed by NCOs) eventually leading to a Presidential Commission.

        It's funny how there is consensus if the above applies to an ex Pte but not anyone else particualrly if its an officers son or daughter as I've seen on another farcical, small minded, anti officer thread. An ex Pte who goes through the Cadet School 'earns it' but anyone else must be an officers son or daughter.

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        • #34
          Do you want Salt and Vinegar?


          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
            Why do you think I am quoting that particualr item- also have a look at the front "garden" of teh Officers Mess CBB.- mess subs did NOT pay for them-

            Have a look also at Sarsfield house or Nashville as its now known.
            There was no garden there in my time just a place to kick ball. It's not an appropriate use of funds if there is. As I said before I totally disagree with expenditure on public rooms, or gardens or bars in any Officers, NCOs or Ptes mess especially when the living in accommodation requires improvement.

            What's that mess in the Curragh that overlooks the ranges? Have you seen the rooms upstairs for 'visiting senior NCOs'. Rarely used, a complete vanity while Connolly Lines is far from the standard it should be.

            As for Generals and Nashville. There's not an Army in the universe where Generals don't have perks. He was the 2i/c of the DF for crying out loud. I think he's earned more than a scratcher in the lines with three other bods.

            Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
            PDFORRA do not worry senior Officers- if you think so then mate you havent a clue.

            the subject of PDFORRA came up and my mate who was a Bk Rep gave the full low down- he asked the Brits did they have something similar and they said no- because most of the stuff that PDFORRA do for us- is done for them by their Officers.
            PDFORRA are part of the agenda. There's a section in DFHQ to deal with them for Gods sake. It's called C&A!

            PDFORRA can present the prospect of being a royal pain in the ass to make an option or course of action unattractive. It just won't be worth the hassle. Most officers at senior level are living out so getting a pain in your head from PDFORRA about the smallest improvement to officer accommodation is considered a self inflicted injury. Why bother? At the same time they can't let PDFORRA 'win' so they won't improve o/ranks accommodation either.

            Like some arguments you might have with the wife. You might want to fight the issue and know you are right but ask yourself is it worth it and even if you win you'll wonder how it will come back to haunt you.

            As for the Brits. Very bad example. I did a course in the UK in 1999. Single rooms with double beds ensuite. A Jury Inn type set up. Four of us shared a batman! A batman in 1999! Now that's just plain wrong. It was extravagant even by todays standard. More than what is needed and not what I would be proposing. But it certainly wasn't a portakabin on the square.

            The officers accommodation was absolutely first rate while some, but certainly not all of the o/ranks accommodation was as good as the best we had here, (like Cavan in 1999) It was no where near the officers and S/NCOs. I saw the same in Slim Lines in KFOR. They make no apology about it and the o/ranks accepted it - Privilege of Rank.
            Last edited by Jessup; 22 August 2009, 01:23.

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            • #36
              [QUOTE=Steyr Fan;265362]
              Originally posted by Jessup View Post
              ...we do get a Presidential Commission and the responsibility that goes with that commission. QUOTE]

              and one of those responsibilities is the welfare of the troops, not to whinge and whine about individual accomodation in Dublin when troops are not getting similar.

              Now get off your horse (and stay off it).
              Sure, if the whole socialism thing works out we'll have soldiers in 'similar' accommodation to officers. We'll set up a politburo too and make all decisions through an all ranks committee.

              A rising tide will raise all boats. If the officers don't have hot water in their accommodation and the o/ranks are whingeing and whining about them not having it either then there's not going to be much sympathy. Nobody wins there.

              I remember the troops whose welfare I was charged with in Blaney complaining about their lot. They were in solid block billets while I was sleeping on a cot in the kitchen in the 'officers hut' as it was affectionately known for the rotation. I might have been an officer but I was human so stayed right up on that horse!

              They did replace the officers hut some years later and guess what - uproar. This was even though the o/ranks accommodation had been superior for years!

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                Do you want Salt and Vinegar?
                Only if its not from a Pte who is a barman in the 'platatial' officers mess. I'll go the NCOs or Ptes Mess and get them there. Would that be ok comrade?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jessup View Post


                  I remember the troops whose welfare I was charged with in Blaney complaining about their lot. They were in solid block billets while I was sleeping on a cot in the kitchen in the 'officers hut' as it was affectionately known for the rotation. I might have been an officer but I was human so stayed right up on that horse!

                  They did replace the officers hut some years later and guess what - uproar. This was even though the o/ranks accommodation had been superior for years!
                  I never remember there being Block Billets in Blaney. I Only remember the timber huts.


                  Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                    I never remember there being Block Billets in Blaney. I Only remember the timber huts.
                    When was that? When Brian Boru was Chief of Staff?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I think he's earned more than a scratcher in the lines with three other bods.
                      I reckon he should bunk in with officers of equal rank.

                      I've no problem with keeping the officers and enlisted in their own accomadation but having the enlisted live in substandard accomadation while the officers have better accomadation is not on.

                      The fact that enlsited can buy a house on the same housing estate in civvy street why should they not share equal accomadation when in bks?albeit in differnt quarters.

                      I'm all for the seperation of ranks to encourage the divide btween enlisted and ranks as clearly there are management and there are grunts. The DF especially the RDF is afar worse place for the over familiartity that has come into places. Some have got the balance right, but its not a democracy, there is a ruling class there will be crossovers and reduction in restrictions to make the thing work. Both sidesof the fence must have mutual respect , officers have to be seen to improve the conditions of their menand in return expect the loyaltity and respect that goes with it. Primary rule of the army respect the rank, then the man.

                      The anti officer bitching in general is bad practise. Sure there are some dismal officers out ther as there are some fine ones as is the case for enlisted, this is accepted but by tarring all with the one brush we are painting a very poor picture of the DF as a whole.

                      It was far more elitist in the past no denying that, the army still takes on certain individuals through the class system, some of these shine other don't. Those who come from a middle class back round have moved into uncharted territory but once in should be on a level playing field and lineage shouldn't affect how their carrers pan out, often some are taken offence to and bracketed all through their carreers, amany fine officers have been lost through this.

                      I have to say to a certain extent it is starting to open up a bit but the enlisted have to realise that if they had taken the option of the cadet school indeed they may have made it.

                      Yes there is eletism amongst the officer corps but only because of the selection process and because they got through a very rigerous selection process, I don't hold that against them but it shouldn't give them the right to abidicate from their responsibility unto their men.

                      The eliteism should not extend to basic living facilities and officers have a responsibility to make sure their men are as well barracked as they are them selves, again respect is earned by action, disdain earned by in action.

                      I reckon its getting there as guys come out of scholl join the army to find their platoon officer was the guy who was two classes ahead of them in school but lived in the same housing estate. they can equate with this guy and he is on a winner already if the guys can equate with him.

                      Idealism I know but what I've seen of guys coming through the reserve and getting cadetships and meeting them when commissioned afterwards I found them all to be very fine professional young men who were happy to reflect on their time in the RDF and would help the RDF guys on exercise to get the best of the traing available .

                      Having met with some of my own former officers from the NS 20 years on its nice to know the rank barriers are gone and have been able to talk openy with them with no officer /enlisted bullshit involved.

                      The have been quite helpful in some areas I've had interest in and often like to know how guys moved on after the service and are quite genuine in their concerns. Anti Officer me..no...ant idiot regardless of rank yes!
                      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        I reckon he should bunk in with officers of equal rank.

                        I've no problem with keeping the officers and enlisted in their own accomadation but having the enlisted live in substandard accomadation while the officers have better accomadation is not on.
                        Nobody should be in sub standard accommodation. There should be a minimum acceptable standard but I suppose where I differ with most on this thread is that I believe that the standard should rise with rank. Take officers out of it for a second because I feel most posters can't see beyond that red mist.

                        Lets say there's a standard that Ptes share a room of certain sq ft and amenities etc between four.

                        Another standard is that Sgts should have a single room of smaller sq ft but with maybe slightly better amenities (a sink in the room perhaps). You could even link it to the equivalent to what a Lt would have.

                        If a Sgt is sharing with one other Sgt then its sub standard for his rank.

                        If a Pte is sharing with three others his accommodation is as per standard.

                        The Pte would love to share with just one other and can't understand how the Sgts accommodation could be classified as sub standard. Its not sub standard for a Pte but it is for a Sgt.
                        Last edited by Jessup; 22 August 2009, 02:18.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          I reckon he should bunk in with officers of equal rank.
                          That's really lightened the thread. You do know that was referring to a Maj Gen? He should bunk in with the only other Maj Gen Now that would start a fantastic rumour. The two D COS's living together. I'd say the IMO server would crash with the posts on that thread

                          Who was the other D COS with The Nasher before he went to Chad, hopefully not a snorer

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                          • #43
                            Jessup you make some valid points but by your reasoning, a red arse 2nd lieutenant fresh outta the cadet school would be entitled to better accomodation than a Sgt. Major? No way.

                            Of course there should be certain priveleges with rank but keep it realistic.

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                            • #44
                              Im slightly off topic here but id like to back to something Jessop said (sorry guys but i dont know how to quote on this site yet!!)
                              Basically it said "no apoloogies etc chain of command...they have earned it"
                              Maybe so Jessop, but do you apply this argument to a 2 LT straigth out of the cadet school. Personally I always viewed the cadet school as a type of apprenticeship....teaches you the theory of what you will be doing, but you only learn your job when you go to your unit (I would hold recruit training in the same light)
                              In my experience a pip on either shoulder earns you nothing but disdain. Ptes view 2 LT's as over eager gobshites who havent a clue, SNCO's tolerate them as having to learn. Point I'm making is that "earning" something takes time, it isnt an automatic right just because youv'e completed a course (lets face it thats all cadet school is, a course, take a civvie, make him an officer).
                              And please guys before you hit me with the "did you ever do it" line...no I didnt, but I did hang up my camo in Jan of this year as a SNCO with 22 under my belt....so in my opinion (humble as it may be) that must count for something

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                                What's that mess in the Curragh that overlooks the ranges?
                                Hospital mess?


                                PDFORRA are part of the agenda. There's a section in DFHQ to deal with them for Gods sake. It's called C&A!
                                Plus the unit commanders & GOCs they talk to on local issues.


                                Originally posted by Jessup View Post
                                Nobody should be in sub standard accommodation. There should be a minimum acceptable standard but I suppose where I differ with most on this thread is that I believe that the standard should rise with rank. Take officers out of it for a second because I feel most posters can't see beyond that red mist.

                                Lets say there's a standard that Ptes share a room of certain sq ft and amenities etc between four.

                                Another standard is that Sgts should have a single room of smaller sq ft but with maybe slightly better amenities (a sink in the room perhaps). You could even link it to the equivalent to what a Lt would have.

                                If a Sgt is sharing with one other Sgt then its sub standard for his rank.

                                If a Pte is sharing with three others his accommodation is as per standard.
                                Thats a excellent idea! Having said that many billets are in old buildings that probably couldn't be cheaply converted to this standard.

                                There is a set square footage for living areas it could be HSA or something else, DF are probably exempt.

                                When I joined the FCA they were charging us for accomodiation but we never got charged because it was alway "sub-standard" accomodiation.

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