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  • #61
    The quality of NCOs has improved dramatically Hedgehog so if we accept your theory lets hope that results in consistently better officers too.
    I would say its the oppisite

    a % of the NCO's now are those who got in on Shreenans transistion year experiment
    they wereent great Recruits and couldnt be got rid of
    now they are NCO's

    Some not all. ( My opinion)
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post

      but it doesn't give the army the right to not provide adequate accomadation for enlisted young men, just because they have a lower pay grade and status within the army.

      On the topic of NCOs undermining officers,I would hope that the officer would be of strong enough charachter to be able to diffuse this.
      I'm not equipped to comment on the NS but I would put your ships in line with the Army o/seas which is a completely different ball game. I shared with my Pln Sgt in UNIFIL for four months (but rest of the lads were four or six to a room). In KFOR we had no choice and no crib with the NATO SOP of three or four junior officers to a container. Majors were two per container and only Lt Cols and above had their own digs. My posts here are more linked to 'on shore' accommodation. I think the Irish camp was a bit more cushy than a lot of the other contingents in KFOR that for all ranks.

      Everyone should have adequate accommodation but some of the comparisons here were ridiculous. The old 'any Private would love to live in those officer portakabins' argument. It would be a bad sign for any military organisation where those in subordinate ranks would not take the accommodation of superiors above their own. A Pte and a Sgt should both have adequate accommodation. Where most seem to differ with me here is that I believe that accommodation should be appropriate to their rank. EG I don't think its wrong that the Sgts accommodation would be 'better' than the Ptes?

      As regards the undermining thing I think that is for another thread - (I'm still new to all the protocols here) YO's might appear cocky but most of your formative years is spent second guessing every decision you make. The fact that I had a walloper trying to 'break' me made me stronger. For other YO's a more mentor type of NCO might work. I certainly had more of the latter but the shitty time with the first guy probably did me more good if that's not too perverse of a concept :confused: On balance I think it works out ok?
      Last edited by Jessup; 23 August 2009, 13:48.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
        I would say its the oppisite

        a % of the NCO's now are those who got in on Shreenans transistion year experiment
        they wereent great Recruits and couldnt be got rid of
        now they are NCO's

        Some not all. ( My opinion)
        Even I'll defend the NCOs on that one. Ok maybe the Cpl situation is bad but I'm out a few years now so haven't had the pleasure. It can't be all that bad?

        But what about the Sgts and above. There used to be some awful lemons but nowadays with promotion boards etc. Is it really that bad?

        You're in CBB. I don't think I ever did a 'Bde Lie Down' there with a bad Sgt? It's not an in depth examination of the standard I know but you can get the overall vibe easy enough.

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        • #64
          This is spiralling downwards guys and if ive contributed to that then i apologise.

          For Hedgehog and Jessop I wouldnt like either of you to think that Im defening all NCO's as the saviour of the DF and slating all Offrs. Not the case.

          As I came up through the system I worked with other NCO's that putting it bluntly, I was embarrassed to say they held the same rank as me.
          By equal measure I worked with Officers who couldnt manage a piss up in a brewery and I also worked with Officers that would have excelled irrespective of what Army they were in, really top class guys.

          My initial point now seems lost in all of this. I do not belive that gaining your commision or receiving your stripes gets you respect. It simply puts you in a position that if you do your job and do it well without suffering from God syndrome, you can over time gain the respect of those you command. Again speaking from experience, too many of our Offrs and NCO's seem to either forget this point or they never understood it in the first place. Either way it means that the system dosent work to its full potential, and that is a shame given our status as a professional army.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
            Whats the point..you see to have all the answers..the rest of us will just continue to read your soapbox solutions
            Burn!!

            I'm firm in my position on Accommodation, DF going to Afghanistan and the RDF o/seas. You have your soapbox, I have mine. What's wrong? Are you going to go away with your ball and I'm not allowed to play anymore.

            I've offered insights on the Army Officers thread for those who were asking re the Cadets in particular.

            I think that's it on the threads I've posted on.

            On the Warrant Officer topic I think it will become a real problem soon. I have an open mind but would like to know what the opinions are of those who are affected by it. Or maybe they aren't affected by it at all and are happy that the BSM post in X Bn is blocked for 15 years?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Jessup View Post
              I'll tell what the next big challenge is with NCOs. Its for another thread I think. What do you do when we get to a situation when lads are making CS and CQ in their mid to late thirties and BSM and BQ in their mid to late forties?

              That's all well and good for them but it puts a cork in the bottle and blocks that vacancy for everyone behind them for decades. Time to seriously consider introducing the Warrant Officer rank to push on those guys and let a good turnover flow behind them. There's a shortage of Captains anyway. It wouldn't affect officers promotions. Ideal posts would be barrack QMs, Training Depots etc. Any thoughts out there?
              Do what the Brits do

              The military is a young mans game. May SNCOs in the UK become late entry officers (short course and your a captain).

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              • #67
                In the US, the warrant officer is a mainly technical role. You do basic, and bypass the lower enlisted ranks to become warrant, but the master sgt is still the senior NCO.


                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                • #68
                  I'm firm in my position on Accommodation, DF going to Afghanistan and the RDF o/seas. You have your soapbox, I have mine. What's wrong? Are you going to go away with your ball and I'm not allowed to play anymore.
                  No not at all, we'll agree to disagree, its never going to be solved and all thats offered is opinions.

                  As for the sarcasm,when an oppertunity presents itself its custom and practise to open up with both barrels and wait for the results.

                  I've presented my point, you have yours we come from different ends of the spectrum and possibly there isn't even a middle ground to agree on.Thats life. No point in me further discussing my opinions on the subject but I'll continue to read yours, bearing in mind where you came from.

                  My input to the discussion is the ideal as opposed to the reality and by default the reality wins. Can accept that .Others will continue the discussion but not me unless it reverts to something I have a specific insight into.

                  Continue please, your doing beautifully.
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • #69
                    Dead on. We'll imagine that we've had a cyber hug and made up so :wink:

                    Here's a genuine idea albeit based on my premise of accommodation improving with rank. What about RACO and PDFORRA coming up with a joint strategy on the policy? If we establish the parity system I suggested then both organisations are helping each other from Sgt up to Comdt. Then the two of them do some bartering on how they can support each other on the Ptes and Cpls for PDFORRA and Lt Cols and above for RACO.

                    The Ptes and Cpls can't have a standard (as in space, fittings etc. NOT heating and hot water) too far below the Sgt/Lt and the Lt Cols and above can't be miles ahead of BSMs/Comdts?

                    There will be more movement on barracks as a result of Board Snip Nua and the new White Papers in the short to medium term so two organisations singing from the same hymn sheet might make some progress. There is a level of stalemate going on at the moment. Why has the Capital Budget on all the new buildings mostly excluded living in accommodation to date. The ways things are going having digs in Bks will be one of the few 'perks' left for any rank in the DF.
                    Last edited by Jessup; 23 August 2009, 19:24.

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                    • #70
                      Why not include the 3rd representative association, RDFRA also ?
                      "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                      "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                      • #71
                        That was an unintentional oversight.

                        Maybe to keep a narrower scope? Concentrate on living in, not training accommodation. I'm very modular and look at things in phases. You might say that's unambitious.

                        EG Get RDF specialists o/seas first then push on from there to others

                        EG Get the living accommodation sorted first, push on from there for training accommodation (In the training context I'd prefer if that was more about facilities rather then where you rest your head)

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                        • #72
                          Bearing in mind Murph's naval experience, this is a DF which in fairly recent memory, gave it's NS recruits significantly worse accomodation than car thieves and other assorted scum and had to be dragged into the 20th century by the Prison Service. My own experience is that the DF is always reactive to an accomodation need than proactive, especially for transiting personnel.
                          regards
                          GttC

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                          • #73
                            The current standard of accomodation in the Naval Base is second to none in my opinion. This follows a long refurbishment program.

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                            • #74
                              Hi there,
                              The thing about DF accomodation is that old and new lived side by side, ie, modern buildings with decent facilities and ancient kips that weren't fit for cattle.We, as aptces in Baldonnel in the mid-80s, had a brand-new Hostel fitted with the best of stuff, which was alongside a 1930s Hostel which bore a strong resemblance to a prison wing.The New Hostel was meant to be for aptces only but one half of the new building was rapidly given over to cadets and visiting officers. Over the years, Baldonnel has had a huge amount of money invested in it and most of the old buildings, especially the ancient hangars are either gone or thoroughly modernised. A great change from our first dining hall which was a rat-infested tin hut that was so bad, visiting units refused to eat in it and it was declared derelict and demolished, long after it had actually been declared unfit for purpose.On the other hand, for years, the place was unable to cope with sudden demands for accomodation, especially when security operations demanded room for a sudden influx of "The Wing" and all their gear. Even at annual air show time, the Don always seemed to be caught by surprise and ended up scattering visitors far and wide.
                              regards
                              Gttc

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Sluggie View Post
                                The current standard of accomodation in the Naval Base is second to none in my opinion. This follows a long refurbishment program.
                                It could also be to do with the fact their officers spend more time overseas on courses with other Navies, and of course many of the senior officers were not products of the Cadet School system.


                                Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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