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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jonesy View Post
    Surely this qualification is a universal qualification?

    But this is another example of stupidity and lack of common sense. I am all for civvie and army qualifications remaining distinct, but there must surely be a line drawn in the sand whereby a qualification (such as an EMT) is acknowledged and recognised for what it is?

    I mean a doctor in the defence forces is acknowledged for holding their PhD, which is not a military qualification because it is not obtained on any course. But still it is for the better and benefit of all concerned.

    I would see why people who are an EMT, in the medical corps of the RDF, would be annoyed and frustrated that their qualification isn't allowwed stand for them. I would rather have a qualified person with experience treat myself or a comrade if the need arouse, than someone with a boy scout badge.
    The EMT course is not universally standardised.

    Ireland's standards differ slightly from the UK and USA.

    I would like to speak to anyone who is the Medical Corp that hasnt been able to get a civilian EMT / Paramedic qulaification recognised?

    I think the problem only arises when the person is from another Corp
    I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      They probably have to remain current at certain skills which the DF may not be able to provide.
      that is a major problem for the DF medics at the minute....from two angles :

      the EMT and paramedic qualifications are standardised in the country through PHECC ( gov body responsible for pre-hospital emergenccy care standards ). however,

      1. on both courses there is a requirement for placement on emergency ambulances to gain exposure and experience to all trauma and medical emergencies. i think for EMT is a week long placemnt, however for paramedic it is something like 6 months (hours based internship AFAIK ). obviously this is a major comitment and a difficulty for the DF as realistically they would be relying on Dublin Fire Brigade or National Ambulance Service to provide placements on their ambulances.

      2. after a medic qualifies through PHECC again they need to keep a certain amount of contact and exposure to live cases to keep their qualification...again a problem for DF medics.

      a major problem is though that the DF have slightly different requirements e.g. battlefield trauma skills, to paramedics working in the emrgency services. PHECC to date have not recognised this or designed a qualification specific to the DF. saying that, from talking to a medic friend, it seems to be a problem on both sides. the DF haven't designed a specific course and submitted it for recognition to PHECC...and PHECC havent been proactive towards DF special requirements.
      An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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      • #33
        Originally posted by X-RayOne View Post
        a major problem is though that the DF have slightly different requirements e.g. battlefield trauma skills, to paramedics working in the emrgency services. PHECC to date have not recognised this or designed a qualification specific to the DF. saying that, from talking to a medic friend, it seems to be a problem on both sides. the DF haven't designed a specific course and submitted it for recognition to PHECC...and PHECC havent been proactive towards DF special requirements.
        This is not just an issue affecting the DF, Mountain Rescue teams have run into similar issues. Part of the problem is that there is possibly no experience of both environments on the PHECC board (Please note i could be wrong on this).

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        • #34
          very true Boomer,

          there are a number of pre-hospital care organisations that have problems with PHECC recognition because of the special circumstances they operate in.

          although the Council states that it is the standards body for all "pre-hospital emergency care" the reality is that it is almost completley focused towards tradiotional emergency ambulance services. there is little recognition of other services, voluntary or professional, that supply medical care out of hospital.

          alot of that is due to the representation on the council board and medical advisary groups, mostly made up of E.D. doctors or emergency ambulance service representatives. for the most part they just ensure their respective areas are catered for and there is little recognition of services outside these areas.
          An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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          • #35
            In terms of liability, what are the implications for Irish Army medics using their skills on non-army casualties, in view of the non- recognition of army qualifications outside the military sphere? I remember the days when "Crown Immunity" covered the RAMC, so if we did screw up, there was no question of being sued. I know that is no longer in place, but I'm wondering if (or was their ever) a similar scheme in Ireland?

            I can remember being trained to do a lot of things in green that as a civvy nurse I would not be covered to do (intubate, inserting chest drains, crycothroidotomies, etc). This was in the days when most nurses were not even covered to put in an IV canulae.
            'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
            'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
            Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
            He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
            http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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            • #36
              I think we had "Crown Immunity" at one point too, but we got rid of it sometime in the early 20s, maybe some of the older members might remember the exact date

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              • #37
                Talking to a 3* Medic in Bricin's, the ambulance there does cover for the HSE, not sure if it is all the time or not.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                  In terms of liability, what are the implications for Irish Army medics using their skills on non-army casualties, in view of the non- recognition of army qualifications outside the military sphere? I remember the days when "Crown Immunity" covered the RAMC, so if we did screw up, there was no question of being sued. I know that is no longer in place, but I'm wondering if (or was their ever) a similar scheme in Ireland?

                  I can remember being trained to do a lot of things in green that as a civvy nurse I would not be covered to do (intubate, inserting chest drains, crycothroidotomies, etc). This was in the days when most nurses were not even covered to put in an IV canulae.
                  Dont think army medics are covered unless they have dual civilian and military qualifications which most have.
                  I went into an Italian restaurant and ordered dessert and they gave me tiramisu and a blindfolded horse and I said No, I said mask a pony (mascarpone)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Talking to a 3* Medic in Bricin's, the ambulance there does cover for the HSE, not sure if it is all the time or not.
                    The duty ambulance in DFTC also is on stand by for the HSE, for the surrounding region
                    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Liachta Cultaca View Post
                      Dont think army medics are covered unless they have dual civilian and military qualifications which most have.
                      Don't go & rely on my say so as legal protection, but the legal situation as it was explained to me is so long as you can justifably say you were acting in good faith & were not negligent, you are covered.

                      This law Would seem to be the same as reasonable force, it's how the facts would present to a reasonable man at the time, not to a legal expert with the benefit of hindsight.

                      This would lead me to believe that if an army medic knew how to perform a procedure & did so in good faith they would be covered.

                      Look that's what I've been led to believe/given to understand, if someone knows better I'll defer to their superior knowledge.

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                      • #41
                        With regards to medics treating non-military casualties, I believe its the case that unless you are part of:

                        a) A volunteer service ie: Order of Malta, St Johns etc doing medical duties at events
                        or
                        b) An actual HSE paramedic etc.

                        that you are liable to be sued etc, if you treat someone at random that is in difficutly. Certainly if you do damage to the person during treatment eg: bruised ribs from CPR. Certainly in my experience that has been the case.

                        I believe they are trying to change this with a Good Samaritan law, that covers you if you have been first trained and you went to the aid of someone.

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                        • #42
                          I didn't know that about the EMTs and different levels etc.

                          But I would imagine that if someone was a medic in the RDF they would come under an umbrella that would protect them, so long as they treated a person up to the level they are trained in.

                          I am open to correction on that, but its just a guess.

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                          • #43
                            The only qualification that we get, that is recognized by PHECC, i think is the Cardiac First Responder. Which on a scale of things, is pretty much the lowest rung.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tipplegend View Post
                              that you are liable to be sued etc, if you treat someone at random that is in difficutly. Certainly if you do damage to the person during treatment eg: bruised ribs from CPR. Certainly in my experience that has been the case.
                              Bear in mind anyone can be sued for anything, whether you can be successfully sued on the other hand is a different story. It needs to be remembred that while doing CPR and using a defibrillator the following things WILL happen,

                              1) Bruised chest
                              2) Broken Ribs
                              3) burns (from defib pads)

                              Therefore someone COULD take you to court based on this but as I have heard in the past one judge is alleged to have said

                              "your alive now because of this persons actions and your sueing them for a broken rib and bruising?"

                              The case was thrown out from the info passed onto me.

                              At the end of the day if you work within the limits of your training and to the same standards of an equivilently trained person then any chances of a successful case being taken against you are severely reduced.

                              That does NOT allow for a basic first aider to claim to be a paramedic, there is no protection at all then!
                              Last edited by Boomer; 28 April 2010, 18:11.

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                              • #45
                                boomer has hit the nail on the head there. in relation to DF medics treating patients outside work enviroment what they can do regarding interventions is governed by a couple of things :
                                1. what they claim to be. if they say they are a paramedic then the court will look at a similarly qualified paramedic would do in the same situation. cant remember what the exact legal phrasing is but the gist is "what a resonable person with the same skill set in same situation would reasonably do".
                                2. what they are allowed do. the skills or interventions they are allowed do at the level of training. basically you have to operate within your skill set and within the guidelines laid down for your qualification.

                                also most medical personnel will operate under the principles of benificience and non-malfesience. which are basically anything you do will be of benefit to the patients survival and anything you do will not harm the patient.

                                also there is no good samaritan law in ireland. an off duty medic who sees an accident is under no legal obligation to render any assistance despite common misconceptions.
                                Last edited by X-RayOne; 28 April 2010, 18:26.
                                An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost. Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain

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