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  1. #2826
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

    Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
    According to a Ambo dispatcher mate of mine, between 70 and 80% of ICU beds were taken up by Roma and our own Caravan and camping club members during the high of it.

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  3. #2827
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Enters, coughs, puts on broken record..

    Steel beach and quarter ramp for maximum flexibility in dealing with heavy equipment of all types. (Including; God forbid, referigeration units.)


    Vard 7 313 Stern Modification Concept
    No. Not as simple as sticking a bigger ramp/door on the stern. If you are going to unload from the stern onto a beach then the back half has to contain a system of large ballast tanks strong enough to hold it down when unloading but big enough to lift it from the shore when the ship grounds. Larger anchors too, to drag you off the beach after loading down. Not to mention completely changing how you propel the ship and locate the props.
    The quarter ramp in itself can cause many headaches. If you want to keep using the helideck then you have to keep it small, then you are relying on a pontoon ramp to get vehicles from ship to shore, not always available. Many of the smaller islands stick the stern in, throw out the anchors, and keep the engine pulling. Easier to have a side loading ramp.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  4. #2828
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

    Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
    And all while putting force protection measures in place

  5. #2829
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    No. Not as simple as sticking a bigger ramp/door on the stern. If you are going to unload from the stern onto a beach then the back half has to contain a system of large ballast tanks strong enough to hold it down when unloading but big enough to lift it from the shore when the ship grounds. Larger anchors too, to drag you off the beach after loading down. Not to mention completely changing how you propel the ship and locate the props.
    The quarter ramp in itself can cause many headaches. If you want to keep using the helideck then you have to keep it small, then you are relying on a pontoon ramp to get vehicles from ship to shore, not always available. Many of the smaller islands stick the stern in, throw out the anchors, and keep the engine pulling. Easier to have a side loading ramp.
    A Steel Beach is a large ramp at the rear of the vessel that facilitates the loading and unloading of landing craft. It not for the beaching of the vessel rearward.
    Best example can be found on the Dutch HNLMS Karel Doorman (A833).

    A833 Karel Doorman.jpg

  6. #2830
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Enters, coughs, puts on broken record..

    Steel beach and quarter ramp for maximum flexibility in dealing with heavy equipment of all types. (Including; God forbid, referigeration units.)


    Vard 7 313 Stern Modification Concept
    The current Vard design has an aft ramp so that it could be docked at a Ro-ro facility, like we have at several ports. This makes it easy to load and unload.
    A Steel Beach is useful when it can be used; as designed today the vessel only carries two very small landing craft which would be only capable of landing light vehicles such as Land Cruisers. If the requirement is to land heavy equipment then either a larger landing craft or something like a Mexeflote is required.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 21st July 2020 at 06:44.

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  8. #2831
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

    Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
    Not just in Ireland , logistical planning and locations requirements for handling Covid related problems developed into a showpiece of trying to fire on all cylinders. many ideas were partly implemented, partly built, partly crewed, and very partly used. Using military property was not the best idea, codswallop or not, it restricts military freedom of action, and the subsequent traffic patterns in and out of Barracks, for the reasons needed, would create the impression of a Funeral Home. There are other large areas like the Phoenix Park, Race courses, Public car parks, Hospital underground Car parks like St. James etc. etc.

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  10. #2832
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The current Vard design has an aft ramp so that it could be docked at a Ro-ro facility, like we have at several ports. This makes it easy to load and unload.
    A Steel Beach is useful when it can be used; as designed today the vessel only carries two very small landing craft which would be only capable of landing light vehicles such as Land Cruisers. If the requirement is to land heavy equipment then either a larger landing craft or something like a Mexeflote is required.
    Plan to use port facilities and use side and quarter ramps. Use as big an LC that can be loaded on board, and be launched and recovered by own ship equipment.Steel beaches and loading off them is for very fine weather and potentially hazardous for any ship not designed to be opened aft to the sea for prolonged periods such as an LPD.

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  12. #2833
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    Is this a good time to say that if we had an EPV today it would probably be heading to Beirut to assist, delivering Aid, specialised search teams and perhaps act as a floating medical facility? (assuming it wasn't already there).
    From memory of the resupply trips of old, the P20s could be there in 2 weeks, stopping on the way for fuel and stores when they weren't in a hurry. Took L.E. Niamh 9 days to get to the Suez Canal, including a 2 day stop at Valetta on the way on her trip to Asia in 2002.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #2834
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Is this a good time to say that if we had an EPV today it would probably be heading to Beirut to assist, delivering Aid, specialised search teams and perhaps act as a floating medical facility? (assuming it wasn't already there).
    From memory of the resupply trips of old, the P20s could be there in 2 weeks, stopping on the way for fuel and stores when they weren't in a hurry. Took L.E. Niamh 9 days to get to the Suez Canal, including a 2 day stop at Valetta on the way on her trip to Asia in 2002.
    The current situation is a good case to examine and first would be to look at the situation described for RFA Argus. It is pre-positioned and has ample warning to be close to where it may be needed. The help it can bring is most useful is immediate after an event, and thus it needs to be close. But we can compare what an EPV could bring to other tye of responce.

    Medical: here the speed of the EPV is just to slow, the need was yesterday and it will never be able to match the response time of an air portable field hospital. Qatar has sent 2x 500 person hospitals using their 8x C-17's that they acquired for just such an event. Another will arrive today from France. While these could not help with the first responce their size will allow them to provide more support than a small hospital facility on the EPV. As for emergency cases which cannot be handled in the first few hours by local facilities there would have been the option to Airlift to Cyprus or Turkey. But it does not seems that this was available, maybe in the coming days it will.

    Search & Rescue: this is very much like the aftermath of an earth quake and the need is the same. Specialist and their equipment, like available in Italy. Here again as they are needed immediately the only option is airlift. A few days after the event we know it will no longer be a rescue effort but body recovery. And like the responce to an earth quake any heavy equipment will be that which is locally available.

    But once the initial responce is over, that is when an EPV would be useful. There would be the need to clear and restore the port facilities so that supplies can pour in. This mean they would need heavy lifting equipment, earth moving, demolition experts & their equipment for damaged structure etc. All this is heavy and will not be airlifted but could be assembled and transported by the EPV. It would mean that the Engineering Corps would have to have the equipment and personnel for this type of mission. Strange as it may seem to some but a lot of the structures that remain might need to be blown-up.

    I would assume that until the bulk handling facilities are restored most food supplies will come in ISO containers. Thankfully for Lebanon they have a second port which is capable of handling these, Triploi. It does mean that they have to be transported south to Beirut but I would suppose that this will not be an issue.

    So IMHO there is a case for an EPV in a HADR mission but not in a "first responder" role unless it is for an annual event like the hurricane season.

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  16. #2835
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    Why RFA Argus? She is in the Caribbean.
    Much of the aid will be required once the initial recovery is done. This is has had a major impact on local infrastructure, much of which may not be clear for a week or 2. At the moment the priority is dealing with wounded and locating the missing.
    Next week the hospital that suffered damage in the explosion may need to be closed so it can be assessed and rebuilt. You'll need somewhere for patients to go. At present their COVID19 patients are being treated in what was the hospital car park.
    The Container Port in Beirut is not far from the bulk terminal, but does not appear to have been damaged, though much of the machinery may need to be assessed. Photos show the container cranes are still standing, they would be kneeling if they were overbalanced in the most minuscule of ways.

    But do you not see the usefulness of the EPV in a disaster situation such as this as a floating command centre for Irish led operations?
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  18. #2836
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    But do you not see the usefulness of the EPV in a disaster situation such as this as a floating command centre for Irish led operations?
    Apparently DFA have a Rapid Response Corps for humanitain emergencies.

    https://www.irishaid.ie/what-we-do/r...se-initiative/

    Imagine if the state also had not only an MRV but airlift to deploy this asset, send an advanced party out by air with an Initial Response Kit, then call back to Ireland tell them what extra personnel and equipment is needed, load up the MRV and like you said use it as a base of operations on site.

    Maybe now their will be movement on this with both the DoD and DFA under one Minister, who will also responsible for a seat on the UNSC.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  20. #2837
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Why RFA Argus? She is in the Caribbean.
    Much of the aid will be required once the initial recovery is done. This is has had a major impact on local infrastructure, much of which may not be clear for a week or 2. At the moment the priority is dealing with wounded and locating the missing.
    Next week the hospital that suffered damage in the explosion may need to be closed so it can be assessed and rebuilt. You'll need somewhere for patients to go. At present their COVID19 patients are being treated in what was the hospital car park.
    The Container Port in Beirut is not far from the bulk terminal, but does not appear to have been damaged, though much of the machinery may need to be assessed. Photos show the container cranes are still standing, they would be kneeling if they were overbalanced in the most minuscule of ways.

    But do you not see the usefulness of the EPV in a disaster situation such as this as a floating command centre for Irish led operations?
    The blog that you linked earlier referred to RFA Argus not just HMS Enterprise.

    I agree the container port does not seem to be damaged but right next to it is a passenger ferry on her side. So I would hope that the facility is OK but fear that it might have suffered too much to go straight back into action. At least they have a second option.

    As for the hospital issue, the people of Beirut are resourceful as hell. There will be by the weekend at least 3 field hospitals in country and hopefully quickly up and running. The two from Qatar will provide care for up to 1,000 people. If I look a bit to the north to Turkey; they have several container based field hospitals and should Lebanon request I am sure that Israel would also provide some of their equipment (might have to go via UNIFIL). IMHO we would be better off having a container based field hospital and transporting it with the EPV than relying on a limited bed facility onboard. That is fine for the start of an operation where there is little or no shore based facilities but IMHO I think here other options would be better.

    I do see the usefulness of the EPV for DR such as this. At a minimum the deployed personnel should not be an additional drain on the local resources. They need to be feed, watered and rested, here the EPV is a great asset. Then as you mentioned it would provide a command centre but not only that, it would be able to provide maintenance and repair facilities for any equipment deployed.

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  22. #2838
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Is this a good time to say that if we had an EPV today it would probably be heading to Beirut to assist, delivering Aid, specialised search teams and perhaps act as a floating medical facility? (assuming it wasn't already there).
    From memory of the resupply trips of old, the P20s could be there in 2 weeks, stopping on the way for fuel and stores when they weren't in a hurry. Took L.E. Niamh 9 days to get to the Suez Canal, including a 2 day stop at Valetta on the way on her trip to Asia in 2002.
    The Indonesian contingent in Lebanon is assisting, no mention of the Irish unit or Ireland as yet. A ship is an asset as an on site office and a rear link to home and the Irish Unit in Lebanon. Air Lingus still have aircraft etc. Money would help say 5m from the Overseas aid.

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  24. #2839
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    Wouldn't we need a UN Security Council resolution to deploy?

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  26. #2840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Wouldn't we need a UN Security Council resolution to deploy?
    That’s a point!
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  27. #2841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Wouldn't we need a UN Security Council resolution to deploy?
    As it is HADR mission it should be covered by the Defence Amendment Act 2006

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...d/en/html#sec3

    Therefore it should only require the government decision.

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