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  • The modern solution would appear to be (like all things) a self contained TEU, complete with earthing points and pumping equipment. The Air Corps already use them when deploying aircraft away from home.
    For a ship to be only an occasional operator, let alone fueller of rotary wing aircraft, it appears more practical than designing a ship with built in JET A1 storage and handling.
    AMA is a privately owned Italian company specialising in the design and manufacture of fuel and water handling systems. Our…

    Just design your ship with somewhere to store TEUs that do not prevent the helideck from being used.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
      The modern solution would appear to be (like all things) a self contained TEU, complete with earthing points and pumping equipment. The Air Corps already use them when deploying aircraft away from home.
      For a ship to be only an occasional operator, let alone fueller of rotary wing aircraft, it appears more practical than designing a ship with built in JET A1 storage and handling.
      AMA is a privately owned Italian company specialising in the design and manufacture of fuel and water handling systems. Our…

      Just design your ship with somewhere to store TEUs that do not prevent the helideck from being used.
      just purely as an operator I am not keen to have a bulk fuel unit on deck with a long burn time or an explosive depletion. Hundreds of ships carry their aviation fuel and make provision for all types of fueling both on deck and in flight at the hover. Ships have gone without Heli for more than a year and fuel was fine using daily Quality control measures. Role change TEU's are a norm in some Navies but all in all such scenarios come from commercial technology looking to make a few shekels. Bright ideas lead to ships difficult to operate and difficult to crew with the required knowledge base. Ships must always be good to go when on task.

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      • just purely as an operator I am not keen to have a bulk fuel unit on deck with a long burn time or an explosive depletion
        Jet A1 needs to be heated to 21 degrees centigrade under compression before it reaches it flash point and would only burn without these precursors if atomized so it is relatively stable. Given up to recently ships carried petrol which has a flash point with a minus value and burns at 4000 ft per minute.....its not all bad.

        If a hard point were to be fixed for fue,l a foam flood systems could be rigged to the hard point.
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • Our Fuel was designated JP5 to ASTM, D1655. DEF STAN 91-91. Flash point 38C and freezing -60C. Treated FS 11. Petrol stowage was in small volume containers, rigged for auto release in case it needed to be jettisoned. JP5 and ships' diesel were similarly stable. However in the right circumstances both will burn which is why ships have fire suppression systems.

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          • I know of a company who brings in 1 container a year of a particular dangerous product. On both the main vessel and feeder it has to be stowed on deck, on an outside stack so in the event of fire it can be f*cked over board (along with the empty containers that need to surround it).

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            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              Our Fuel was designated JP5 to ASTM, D1655. DEF STAN 91-91. Flash point 38C and freezing -60C. Treated FS 11. Petrol stowage was in small volume containers, rigged for auto release in case it needed to be jettisoned. JP5 and ships' diesel were similarly stable. However in the right circumstances both will burn which is why ships have fire suppression systems.
              Mil spec fuel, does the same job as the JET A1 normally used in turbine aircraft.Interestingly enough the Allouettes could run on a stuff called Jet B, which is concoction that includes a drop of 100LL for good measure, the only other aircraftI saw rated for this was Shorts 330 and 360s.

              Shell provides fuels for military use, access this page to find out which fuels are available and the military specifications they meet.


              The down side of devoting tank space to long term storage aboard ship would be the testing and sampling regime that needs to be carried out daily, the pressure testing and cycling of pumps for a fuel that may or may not be used if an aircraft is not deployed.

              It would be unlikely that any future vessel would return to Eithnes standard of flight ops there fore the concept of a deployable TEU an associated systems is IMHO a far better option.

              The more modular capabilities and future ship has ensures that it will be far more flexible and therefore better VFM.
              Last edited by hptmurphy; 5 April 2018, 22:13.
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • Going on functionality and "Ready to GO" the flexible ship with requisitionable equipment, and the correct personnel for the job , will eventually fail big time with no mentors or on-the -job trainers available or in the right place at the right time. VFM concept is another form of Procrastination much favoured by our Pols. Don't spend now, delay and waffle, so that today is a day for doing nothing AND tomorrow will be another day for doing nothing.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Going on functionality and "Ready to GO" the flexible ship with requisitionable equipment, and the correct personnel for the job , will eventually fail big time with no mentors or on-the -job trainers available or in the right place at the right time. VFM concept is another form of Procrastination much favoured by our Pols. Don't spend now, delay and waffle, so that today is a day for doing nothing AND tomorrow will be another day for doing nothing.
                  Lets engage the service of a consultant to make the decision for us so we can detach ourselves from all responsibility if the decision becomes unpopular.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • Meanwhile here is a useful means to move containers around a deck. All you need is enough people to push it.. or alternatively a fork lift sized towing vehicle.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      Going on functionality and "Ready to GO" the flexible ship with requisitionable equipment, and the correct personnel for the job , will eventually fail big time with no mentors or on-the -job trainers available or in the right place at the right time. VFM concept is another form of Procrastination much favoured by our Pols. Don't spend now, delay and waffle, so that today is a day for doing nothing AND tomorrow will be another day for doing nothing.
                      Can we look at outfitting the NEW P64 with a 32 year old in service 76mm gun. If everything is removed and installed in the NEW vessel then the system is to be pitched at up to 65/70 years, operational life. If we do that without refurbishment and updating the gun FCS and ammunition then we will have problems of seamless integration or breakdown of control systems. Does power architecture and voltage on P41 match that of P64. Why not give the task to OTO MELARA to refurbish and install the 76mm in order to have some period of guarantee and factory attendance in at least the first two years.
                      Equipments controlling acquisition, bearings, ranges, recoil shock, safety angles, need to be as new with future life of 36 years minimum.

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                      • VFM isn’t all bad. So long as it is used correctly

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                        • You should remember that the Bofors 40mm fitted to L.E. Emer when she was launched in 1977, were built in 1954-56. Better off in my opinion that all guns fitted are of the same vintage, that way like we did with the L60, we can upgrade the entire fleet at the same time, when it becomes necessary.
                          Commonality is far more important than modernity with weaponry, when it comes to Logistics and Training.
                          The OTO Melara 76/62 Compact has been in service, mostly unchanged, with no reliability issues, since 1963. The only variable, with older guns is how many rounds have gone down the barrel. It is a Modular system that is pretty self contained, requiring 440V 3 Phase for the main supply and 110V 1 Phase for the hydro and servo system. This is easily achieved on any ocean going vessel.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                            You should remember that the Bofors 40mm fitted to L.E. Emer when she was launched in 1977, were built in 1954-56. Better off in my opinion that all guns fitted are of the same vintage, that way like we did with the L60, we can upgrade the entire fleet at the same time, when it becomes necessary.
                            Commonality is far more important than modernity with weaponry, when it comes to Logistics and Training.
                            The OTO Melara 76/62 Compact has been in service, mostly unchanged, with no reliability issues, since 1963. The only variable, with older guns is how many rounds have gone down the barrel. It is a Modular system that is pretty self contained, requiring 440V 3 Phase for the main supply and 110V 1 Phase for the hydro and servo system. This is easily achieved on any ocean going vessel.
                            There's a story told of the training manual of the original 12 pounder that listed a crew requirement, that appeared to be excessive in practice, by at least one, it turned out his duty was to control the horses when the gun was being fired. Saying a gun fitted, meets the role, requires it to be laid for range and bearing and be accurate and stable when firing. The Bofors L40 was never fit for purpose or used on towed aerial targets, as was the case with the Bofors 57mm. Commonality, Logistics, Training and scales of importance are matters which will fight the ship but it must do so in today's environment on ocean going ships with the required EM designs. If we are going to stick with old technology then we will revert to an organisation untrained to meet modern threats.

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                            • In any event I do not now believe P64 will be fitted with a 32 year old gun. Main armament is in place on Both Peacocks currently tied up in the Basin.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • Came across this Polish design from MMC, their 116m Stealth Logistics Support Ship.
                                http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...l-project.html
                                http://www.mmc-shipdesign.com.pl/p/navy

                                Looking at it, there seems to be many elements from the Damen Crossover concept such as the iMast and the Millennium gun. It could be an interesting contender, it has a crew of 60, displacement of 6100t and the ability to take 8 Piranhas, and 11 TEUs. In its current design configuration it has 2 UNREP masts per side (I would definitely loose the forward one) which would be a useful ability to have in the NS.

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