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  • Originally posted by Laners View Post
    I saw the news article online with photos .
    Our Military Commanders should not agree to the use of operational military units or barracks as mortuaries . There is no need for it , and creates a disrespectful ethic/attitude towards the PDF and those that serve it.

    Comment


    • I think you are being a bit precious now.
      It was an international emergency, plans for worst.case scenarios have to be made. P31 was doing nothing else. If anything it got her out of the basin, instead of rotting away tied up before inevitable retirement, as happened to Setanta.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        I think you are being a bit precious now.
        It was an international emergency, plans for worst.case scenarios have to be made. P31 was doing nothing else. If anything it got her out of the basin, instead of rotting away tied up before inevitable retirement, as happened to Setanta.
        No objection to use of P31 as implemented but certainly not as a static morgue. Nothing rots if it is maintained like USS Constitution, HMS KELLY etc. You have to choose to let anything rot. The USN had 50 year old ships in use and ships older than P31 in frontline action.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
          If you want to do HADR you need to be able to put JCB's ashore without the use of port facilities, that means an LCU. That also means you can bring in lorries with PSP and matting, and water purification plants, power generation systems...
          Enters, coughs, puts on broken record..

          Steel beach and quarter ramp for maximum flexibility in dealing with heavy equipment of all types. (Including; God forbid, referigeration units.)


          Vard 7 313 Stern Modification Concept
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Our Military Commanders should not agree to the use of operational military units or barracks as mortuaries . There is no need for it , and creates a disrespectful ethic/attitude towards the PDF and those that serve it.
            Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

            Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by apod View Post
              Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

              Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
              According to a Ambo dispatcher mate of mine, between 70 and 80% of ICU beds were taken up by Roma and our own Caravan and camping club members during the high of it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
                Enters, coughs, puts on broken record..

                Steel beach and quarter ramp for maximum flexibility in dealing with heavy equipment of all types. (Including; God forbid, referigeration units.)


                Vard 7 313 Stern Modification Concept
                No. Not as simple as sticking a bigger ramp/door on the stern. If you are going to unload from the stern onto a beach then the back half has to contain a system of large ballast tanks strong enough to hold it down when unloading but big enough to lift it from the shore when the ship grounds. Larger anchors too, to drag you off the beach after loading down. Not to mention completely changing how you propel the ship and locate the props.
                The quarter ramp in itself can cause many headaches. If you want to keep using the helideck then you have to keep it small, then you are relying on a pontoon ramp to get vehicles from ship to shore, not always available. Many of the smaller islands stick the stern in, throw out the anchors, and keep the engine pulling. Easier to have a side loading ramp.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by apod View Post
                  Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

                  Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
                  And all while putting force protection measures in place

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    No. Not as simple as sticking a bigger ramp/door on the stern. If you are going to unload from the stern onto a beach then the back half has to contain a system of large ballast tanks strong enough to hold it down when unloading but big enough to lift it from the shore when the ship grounds. Larger anchors too, to drag you off the beach after loading down. Not to mention completely changing how you propel the ship and locate the props.
                    The quarter ramp in itself can cause many headaches. If you want to keep using the helideck then you have to keep it small, then you are relying on a pontoon ramp to get vehicles from ship to shore, not always available. Many of the smaller islands stick the stern in, throw out the anchors, and keep the engine pulling. Easier to have a side loading ramp.
                    A Steel Beach is a large ramp at the rear of the vessel that facilitates the loading and unloading of landing craft. It not for the beaching of the vessel rearward.
                    Best example can be found on the Dutch HNLMS Karel Doorman (A833).

                    Click image for larger version

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                    • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
                      Enters, coughs, puts on broken record..

                      Steel beach and quarter ramp for maximum flexibility in dealing with heavy equipment of all types. (Including; God forbid, referigeration units.)


                      Vard 7 313 Stern Modification Concept
                      The current Vard design has an aft ramp so that it could be docked at a Ro-ro facility, like we have at several ports. This makes it easy to load and unload.
                      A Steel Beach is useful when it can be used; as designed today the vessel only carries two very small landing craft which would be only capable of landing light vehicles such as Land Cruisers. If the requirement is to land heavy equipment then either a larger landing craft or something like a Mexeflote is required.
                      Last edited by EUFighter; 21 July 2020, 07:44.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by apod View Post
                        Codswallop. The Military Barracks were picked for very good reasons. Hospital morgues were in Danger of being overloaded and there was an urgent requirement for SECURE facilities where deceased persons could be accomodated in a respectful manner prior to burial while at the same times preventing all and sundry gaining access to contaminated bodies and potential cross contaminating themselves and others. Certain members of a certain so called "ethnic " group,who didn't believe the rules or numbers at funerals applied to them also didn't like being told by hospital morgue staff that it wasn't ok to invite large groups in to view the deceased or that throwing themselves on their deceased family member while keening like a tortured wildcat wasn't OK either. These incidents Happened. HSE asked for DF support and the Minister,who was also the Taoiseach AND a medical doctor gave it. Simple as. Our people trained to receive the deceased and do so in a very respectful way. A way that most reasonable people would be proud of if their loved one had to go that way.

                        Ironically the Mortuary was setup on the Bks square.Any self respecting soldier knows WHY Bks squares are considered sacred ground historically.Thanks god we never had to come full circle. How the DF looking after peoples loved ones in a VERY respectful manner on our most sacred ground could engender negative feeling towards us I fail to see.
                        Not just in Ireland , logistical planning and locations requirements for handling Covid related problems developed into a showpiece of trying to fire on all cylinders. many ideas were partly implemented, partly built, partly crewed, and very partly used. Using military property was not the best idea, codswallop or not, it restricts military freedom of action, and the subsequent traffic patterns in and out of Barracks, for the reasons needed, would create the impression of a Funeral Home. There are other large areas like the Phoenix Park, Race courses, Public car parks, Hospital underground Car parks like St. James etc. etc.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          The current Vard design has an aft ramp so that it could be docked at a Ro-ro facility, like we have at several ports. This makes it easy to load and unload.
                          A Steel Beach is useful when it can be used; as designed today the vessel only carries two very small landing craft which would be only capable of landing light vehicles such as Land Cruisers. If the requirement is to land heavy equipment then either a larger landing craft or something like a Mexeflote is required.
                          Plan to use port facilities and use side and quarter ramps. Use as big an LC that can be loaded on board, and be launched and recovered by own ship equipment.Steel beaches and loading off them is for very fine weather and potentially hazardous for any ship not designed to be opened aft to the sea for prolonged periods such as an LPD.

                          Comment


                          • Is this a good time to say that if we had an EPV today it would probably be heading to Beirut to assist, delivering Aid, specialised search teams and perhaps act as a floating medical facility? (assuming it wasn't already there).
                            From memory of the resupply trips of old, the P20s could be there in 2 weeks, stopping on the way for fuel and stores when they weren't in a hurry. Took L.E. Niamh 9 days to get to the Suez Canal, including a 2 day stop at Valetta on the way on her trip to Asia in 2002.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              Is this a good time to say that if we had an EPV today it would probably be heading to Beirut to assist, delivering Aid, specialised search teams and perhaps act as a floating medical facility? (assuming it wasn't already there).
                              From memory of the resupply trips of old, the P20s could be there in 2 weeks, stopping on the way for fuel and stores when they weren't in a hurry. Took L.E. Niamh 9 days to get to the Suez Canal, including a 2 day stop at Valetta on the way on her trip to Asia in 2002.
                              The current situation is a good case to examine and first would be to look at the situation described for RFA Argus. It is pre-positioned and has ample warning to be close to where it may be needed. The help it can bring is most useful is immediate after an event, and thus it needs to be close. But we can compare what an EPV could bring to other tye of responce.

                              Medical: here the speed of the EPV is just to slow, the need was yesterday and it will never be able to match the response time of an air portable field hospital. Qatar has sent 2x 500 person hospitals using their 8x C-17's that they acquired for just such an event. Another will arrive today from France. While these could not help with the first responce their size will allow them to provide more support than a small hospital facility on the EPV. As for emergency cases which cannot be handled in the first few hours by local facilities there would have been the option to Airlift to Cyprus or Turkey. But it does not seems that this was available, maybe in the coming days it will.

                              Search & Rescue: this is very much like the aftermath of an earth quake and the need is the same. Specialist and their equipment, like available in Italy. Here again as they are needed immediately the only option is airlift. A few days after the event we know it will no longer be a rescue effort but body recovery. And like the responce to an earth quake any heavy equipment will be that which is locally available.

                              But once the initial responce is over, that is when an EPV would be useful. There would be the need to clear and restore the port facilities so that supplies can pour in. This mean they would need heavy lifting equipment, earth moving, demolition experts & their equipment for damaged structure etc. All this is heavy and will not be airlifted but could be assembled and transported by the EPV. It would mean that the Engineering Corps would have to have the equipment and personnel for this type of mission. Strange as it may seem to some but a lot of the structures that remain might need to be blown-up.

                              I would assume that until the bulk handling facilities are restored most food supplies will come in ISO containers. Thankfully for Lebanon they have a second port which is capable of handling these, Triploi. It does mean that they have to be transported south to Beirut but I would suppose that this will not be an issue.

                              So IMHO there is a case for an EPV in a HADR mission but not in a "first responder" role unless it is for an annual event like the hurricane season.

                              Comment


                              • Why RFA Argus? She is in the Caribbean.
                                Much of the aid will be required once the initial recovery is done. This is has had a major impact on local infrastructure, much of which may not be clear for a week or 2. At the moment the priority is dealing with wounded and locating the missing.
                                Next week the hospital that suffered damage in the explosion may need to be closed so it can be assessed and rebuilt. You'll need somewhere for patients to go. At present their COVID19 patients are being treated in what was the hospital car park.
                                The Container Port in Beirut is not far from the bulk terminal, but does not appear to have been damaged, though much of the machinery may need to be assessed. Photos show the container cranes are still standing, they would be kneeling if they were overbalanced in the most minuscule of ways.

                                But do you not see the usefulness of the EPV in a disaster situation such as this as a floating command centre for Irish led operations?
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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