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  1. #2776
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    If you want to do HADR you need to be able to put JCB's ashore without the use of port facilities, that means an LCU. That also means you can bring in lorries with PSP and matting, and water purification plants, power generation systems...

    HADR needs helicopters, LCU, Engineers, loggies, and lots of satellite phones. If you're not bringing that stuff, you're getting in the way,and it would be better if you just donated to charity.
    And then you need a well deck and probably another few thousand tonnes displacement

  2. #2777
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    In terms of landing craft they usually start with LCVP, then go up to LCM and finally LCU. After that it is a landing ship.

    LCVP
    most common design used by Dutch and RN
    https://products.damen.com/en/ranges...personnel-1604

    LCM
    (similar to that mounted on HMNZS Canterbury, no well deck!
    https://military.wikia.org/wiki/LCM-1E
    Italian LCM
    https://www.vittoria.biz/en/c-828-landing-craft-mtm/

    LCU
    Damen version for the Dutch but RN Mk10 is very similar.
    https://products.damen.com/en/ranges...t-utility-3607

  3. #2778
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And then you need a well deck and probably another few thousand tonnes displacement
    If you want to lug bricks, you buy a van, not a CBR 600.

  4. #2779
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And then you need a well deck and probably another few thousand tonnes displacement
    My view of the MRV is that multi role is predominant-can be command platform-can move troops and equipment-can accept interaction with helicopters-can supply to own ships/others-can tow to her tonnage standards-can be a HADR assist vessel including evac/medical when equipped-can deliver/manufacture FW- can take/deliver shore power-can support/defend in its location.
    Hadr equipment wouldn't be a part of her everyday pay load, although she should have mobile equipment to move on board weights. Cranes would have the SWL capacity to 20 tonnes at least. The LCVP type should if possible dry load and be lowered to launch. The equipped Hadr role should include portable equipments useful in disaster areas and include JCB or CAT equipment to about 9/10 Tonnes to be discharged by Crane/Quay wall ramp from ship. Any other increase in capability in a particular role removes flexibility and is a different ship. All capabilities must be clearly seen and designed in.

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  6. #2780
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    My view of the MRV is that multi role is predominant-can be command platform-can move troops and equipment-can accept interaction with helicopters-can supply to own ships/others-can tow to her tonnage standards-can be a HADR assist vessel including evac/medical when equipped-can deliver/manufacture FW- can take/deliver shore power-can support/defend in its location.
    Hadr equipment wouldn't be a part of her everyday pay load, although she should have mobile equipment to move on board weights. Cranes would have the SWL capacity to 20 tonnes at least. The LCVP type should if possible dry load and be lowered to launch. The equipped Hadr role should include portable equipments useful in disaster areas and include JCB or CAT equipment to about 9/10 Tonnes to be discharged by Crane/Quay wall ramp from ship. Any other increase in capability in a particular role removes flexibility and is a different ship. All capabilities must be clearly seen and designed in.
    But isn’t necessarily the NS, DF or DoD view

  7. #2781
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    But isn’t necessarily the NS, DF or DoD view
    Like everyone else, expressing views from experience , and many ship types, in the global environment. Sailed in 24 vessels . it's also free advice for anyone interested.

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  9. #2782
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Why did the USN have such ships in the first place? Well they had plenty of destroyer escorts and not a lot for them to do in the Pacific. While we all focus on the big actions like Tarawa, Makin, Iwo Jima there were many much smaller islands that had to be attached and did not need a full on assault. But this was a time of learning in amphibious warfare and many of the ships types from that time are no longer to be found in service.

    Some comments brought up the Absolon class, it is close to what the APD's had with the exception it primary assault means would be via helicopter as it does not carry landing craft like a LCVP or LCM. But it weapons fit make it much better suited to the proposed mission than that in the article (SPY radar, SM missiles etc). It is likely that we could get 2x MRV's and 2x Absolon class vessels for the price of one of the proposed LRPV's.
    My reaction when I read that article was in inquiriy as to what exactly this guy was on.

  10. #2783
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    My view of the MRV is that multi role is predominant-can be command platform-can move troops and equipment-can accept interaction with helicopters-can supply to own ships/others-can tow to her tonnage standards-can be a HADR assist vessel including evac/medical when equipped-can deliver/manufacture FW- can take/deliver shore power-can support/defend in its location.
    Hadr equipment wouldn't be a part of her everyday pay load, although she should have mobile equipment to move on board weights. Cranes would have the SWL capacity to 20 tonnes at least. The LCVP type should if possible dry load and be lowered to launch. The equipped Hadr role should include portable equipments useful in disaster areas and include JCB or CAT equipment to about 9/10 Tonnes to be discharged by Crane/Quay wall ramp from ship. Any other increase in capability in a particular role removes flexibility and is a different ship. All capabilities must be clearly seen and designed in.
    An important point for me here is that I want the vessel to be fully diesel-electric, so it can supply a maximum of power to shore in HADR situations. Like USS Lexington did for Tacoma in 1924.

  11. #2784
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    This is already the case, Naval vessels have enough generating capacity onboard to power a small town.
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  13. #2785
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    This is already the case, Naval vessels have enough generating capacity onboard to power a small town.
    Massive difference between your auxiliary power (maybe 2 MW if you're lucky) or your main power (maybe 10 MW) is used. USS Lexington was of the generation of US warships that had turbine electric propulsion and 130 MW available. There is a massive difference between your prime movers and your generating capacity for hotel load.

  14. #2786
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    I'm no marine engineer, but it's a figure that is frequently quoted.
    I dont understand what you mean by turbine electric propulsion.
    Do you mean that a steam turbine is driving a generator, which propels the ship using motors instead of a standard shaft from the engine gearbox?
    Another option is an industrial standard generator, usually the same size as a 40 foot container. It provides all the power heavy industry needs when they go off grid during peak loads.
    But the standard genny set up on most OPV does the same thing.
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  15. #2787
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I'm no marine engineer, but it's a figure that is frequently quoted.
    I dont understand what you mean by turbine electric propulsion.
    Do you mean that a steam turbine is driving a generator, which propels the ship using motors instead of a standard shaft from the engine gearbox?
    Another option is an industrial standard generator, usually the same size as a 40 foot container. It provides all the power heavy industry needs when they go off grid during peak loads.
    But the standard genny set up on most OPV does the same thing.
    Yeah that was the system the USN used back in that time period, think there were issues with them due to shock damage.

  16. #2788
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I'm no marine engineer, but it's a figure that is frequently quoted.
    I dont understand what you mean by turbine electric propulsion.
    Do you mean that a steam turbine is driving a generator, which propels the ship using motors instead of a standard shaft from the engine gearbox?
    Another option is an industrial standard generator, usually the same size as a 40 foot container. It provides all the power heavy industry needs when they go off grid during peak loads.
    But the standard genny set up on most OPV does the same thing.
    Steam turbines driving generators, driving electric motors, driving the shaft. so 130 MW electric power..

    I am not talking about your basic genny. I am talking about the prime mover, the thing moving the ship through the water being electric,. This is _not_ your bulk standard genny.

    Look at HMS Queen Elizabeth (the curent one) several diesels and 2 GTs providing electricity to drive the electric motors that drive the 2 shafts. Queen Mary has a similar propulsion, as does Juan Carlos. Your gennies do not nearly have the same amount of power as the engines actually propelling the ship. So I am suggesting that the ship be diesel electric driven so that she has something like 10 MW generating capacity instead of maybe 2MW.

    So while every waship has a certain amount of generating power it is only a small amount compared to the power of the propulsion diesels. In a diesel electric drive all the power of the prime movers is available for providing electricity. In my example USS Lexington (CV-2) provided the City of Tacoma not with power from her gennies, but from her main propulsion.
    Last edited by Graylion; 6th June 2020 at 01:44.

  17. #2789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Yeah that was the system the USN used back in that time period, think there were issues with them due to shock damage.
    Hadn't heard that. They went out of use due to weight and the restrictions of the naval treaties.

  18. #2790
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    The TE system did not go out of use due to naval treaty restrictions, many vessels had this type of propulsion installed that were built during WW2. Most famous would be the Buckley class destroyer escorts (the one from the film The Enemy Below). The main reason the USN switched to steam turbine power for their first new build battleship since they stopped build at the end of WW1 (Carolina class) was the advances in turbine technology. They started to fit high pressure turbine systems (high but not crazy German high). This allowed for a reduction on size for the same power. On the Destroyer Escort side, the challenges of war production eventually saw the replacement of the TE system with the now widely used diesel electric system, even if the former was vastly superior for hunting subs.

  19. #2791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Steam turbines driving generators, driving electric motors, driving the shaft. so 130 MW electric power..

    I am not talking about your basic genny. I am talking about the prime mover, the thing moving the ship through the water being electric,. This is _not_ your bulk standard genny.

    Look at HMS Queen Elizabeth (the curent one) several diesels and 2 GTs providing electricity to drive the electric motors that drive the 2 shafts. Queen Mary has a similar propulsion, as does Juan Carlos. Your gennies do not nearly have the same amount of power as the engines actually propelling the ship. So I am suggesting that the ship be diesel electric driven so that she has something like 10 MW generating capacity instead of maybe 2MW.

    So while every waship has a certain amount of generating power it is only a small amount compared to the power of the propulsion diesels. In a diesel electric drive all the power of the prime movers is available for providing electricity. In my example USS Lexington (CV-2) provided the City of Tacoma not with power from her gennies, but from her main propulsion.
    The P60's have three 630kW gennies, with a 300kW emergency gennie. Given that the hotel functions will still need to be powered (no big power hungry sensors) there maybe be 1MW avvailable.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 6th June 2020 at 10:13.

  20. #2792
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    As ever ship design moves on and Navantia seem now to have combined a LPD and LSV into a single ship, their proposed Australian JSS.

    http://https://www.navalnews.com/eve...t-ship-design/

  21. #2793
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The P70's have three 630kW gennies, with a 300kW emergency gennie. Given that the hotel functions will still need to be powered (no big power hungry sensors) there maybe be 1MW avvailable.
    Roll Royce have the DE contract for newer RN ships the basic units ((propulsion) produce 8000kw +/-, 4 to a frigate design, and 2 to Batch 2 OPV. The generators are all at 930kw. Our Emergency generator at 300kw seems low and I presume it has it's own SWB or does it go to the Main.
    Giving power ashore requires planning and a good High Voltage Shore Connection ,HVSC, system. Definitely with the growth of Hybrid or high capacity electric generation on ships, there is power available. Nowadays the reverse is also true that ships can shut down and connect to shore supply themselves. It does however raise cost and taxation charges for it's use. The type 31 will have 4 X 8000 kw , plus 4 X 900 kw available.

  22. #2794
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    What is the output of the P60 when its engines are operating in PTI mode?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  23. #2795
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    What is the output of the P60 when its engines are operating in PTI mode?
    Each PTI motor is 350kW, bow thruster is rated at 450kW

  24. #2796
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Each PTI motor is 350kW, bow thruster is rated at 450kW
    And the onboard generator suite?
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  25. #2797
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    https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breaki...mpression=true

    COVID19- Eithne was to be a floating morgue and backup to HSE HQ

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  27. #2798
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    Thankfully we never got to the levels seen in the UK or the USA. Pretty sobering though, given what we were facing in March.
    This type of role is something I'm sure was not considered when the ship was first being designed. Recovery of victims of a tragedy at sea or a natural disaster, maybe, but actual storage as a morgue? I doubt it.
    I'm sure those tasked with replacing P31 are taking long and detailed notes.
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  28. #2799
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Thankfully we never got to the levels seen in the UK or the USA. Pretty sobering though, given what we were facing in March.
    This type of role is something I'm sure was not considered when the ship was first being designed. Recovery of victims of a tragedy at sea or a natural disaster, maybe, but actual storage as a morgue? I doubt it.
    I'm sure those tasked with replacing P31 are taking long and detailed notes.
    To be fair, this is ridiculous - does anyone actually believe that using a naval vessel, tied up,as a temporary morgue would be easier, cheaper and more efficient than hiring a couple of refrigerated shipping containers or lorries?

    What idiocy is next, vaccines delivered by 5.56 and some half-wit claiming that it's the DF delivering support to the HSE, and that future ammunition choices should take vaccine delivery into consideration?

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  30. #2800
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    To be fair, this is ridiculous - does anyone actually believe that using a naval vessel, tied up,as a temporary morgue would be easier, cheaper and more efficient than hiring a couple of refrigerated shipping containers or lorries?

    What idiocy is next, vaccines delivered by 5.56 and some half-wit claiming that it's the DF delivering support to the HSE, and that future ammunition choices should take vaccine delivery into consideration?
    Given the number of body bags that the Bons in Cork alone ordered, I'd say they would have been concerns even about space. I know from one of the undertakers that they ordered 500 bags at the start of the lockdown, I can only imagine what the major public hospitals in Cork were planning for.

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