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  • how much would one of those cost?

    if its properly mobile, i could see that being a useful operational level asset for Ireland to contribute to EU/UN maritime ops...

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    • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      how much would one of those cost?

      if its properly mobile, i could see that being a useful operational level asset for Ireland to contribute to EU/UN maritime ops...
      The mobile ones lack the dimensions. It is designed to be moved in the same way a mobile home is designed to be moved....
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • The days of military isolation are gone, even if we aren't in any alliances. If we can have our vessels built in the UK, can we pay for the occasional use of a larger dry dock there for one large vessel when necessary?
        Harland and Wolff comes to mind.
        Last edited by expat01; 15 April 2016, 09:01.

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        • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
          The days of military isolation are gone, even if we aren't in any alliances. If we can have our vessels built in the UK, can we pay for the occasional use of a larger dry dock there for one large vessel when necessary?
          Harland and Wolff comes to mind.
          I would imagine the politics involved in using Belfast would be huge, and not really worth the hassle. Somewhere on "the mainland" (I hate that expression!) would be a lot less controversial.

          Or look further afield - surely Malta has somewhere big enough left over from the RN?
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

          Comment


          • Not you. And of course 20m could be squeezed in. The tricky bit is that when a ship is about to take the blocks in a graving dock she becomes momentarily unstable and has to be quickly shored , mechanically or manually, to maintain the vertical. In a narrow dock she could lie on the dock either way. Modern docks often have hydraulic shores. I think our dock still uses timber baulks.

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            • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
              I would imagine the politics involved in using Belfast would be huge, and not really worth the hassle. Somewhere on "the mainland" (I hate that expression!) would be a lot less controversial.

              Or look further afield - surely Malta has somewhere big enough left over from the RN?
              Largest available is 362 metres length, 62 metres beam and 9.5 metres draft. Bring us your business!

              Last edited by Medsailor; 15 April 2016, 11:52.

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              • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                The days of military isolation are gone, even if we aren't in any alliances. If we can have our vessels built in the UK, can we pay for the occasional use of a larger dry dock there for one large vessel when necessary?
                Harland and Wolff comes to mind.
                It is cost of accommodation etc that is probably more of an issue

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                • Graving Docks etc.

                  Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                  how much would one of those cost?

                  if its properly mobile, i could see that being a useful operational level asset for Ireland to contribute to EU/UN maritime ops...
                  A floating graving dock is an asset, once you allow for mooring area, pontoon depth( the bottom bit on which the blocks and ship rests), a decent entry draft better than 6metres. You also need a trained crew and dockmaster. It would need to come with cranes, power, and sanitary facilities. Typically a 5000 Lifting capacity on about 132mX 35m would cost anywhere between Euro 5m/10m depending on age etc. However like getting a dog for a pet there is a lot of minding required and it needs a good safe home.

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                  • Cost may become subordinate to proper Defence. Norway has a population close to ours and runs a navy of Frigates, Submarines, MCM's, Patrol boats, with an establishment of almost 3000.

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                    • Maybe so, my question is simply if anyone has costed such an option.

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                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        Cost may become subordinate to proper Defence. Norway has a population close to ours and runs a navy of Frigates, Submarines, MCM's, Patrol boats, with an establishment of almost 3000.
                        Norway also has a GDP which is nearly twice ours and has history that lends itself to their policies on defence spending, and even then the Frigates have manning issues (with only 1 being full time operational I think), the Sub's are small, two decades old and won't be replaced for another decade so again limited.

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                        • I think the only way we could justify a floating dock is if it were contracted out to repair/service other ships, apart from the NS .
                          "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                          Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                          Illegitimi non carborundum

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                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            Cost may become subordinate to proper Defence. Norway has a population close to ours and runs a navy of Frigates, Submarines, MCM's, Patrol boats, with an establishment of almost 3000.
                            Norway also has a strike rate of 1 in 4 when it drill a oil well

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                            • Drydocking

                              The Necessity, or otherwise, of a Floating Dock

                              I’m sure this will come as a big disappointment to all the floating dock fetishists out there. Who knew there were so many?

                              The manufacturer's published breadth for the Crossover Logistic is 19.6 metres. She will fit, albeit tenderly, into the Verolme dry-dock.

                              For ancientmariner in particular, thanks for the information on that. My understanding is that Damen use something called ‘the enlarged ship concept’, devised at the university of Delft and, applied in this particular case as an elongated stiletto bow. I have no understanding of the mathematics, but intuitively I accept the idea that the design could help lateral stability and reduce slamming in rough conditions. I have no idea how to even begin forming an opinion regarding the implications for roll and yaw, particularly at low speeds, but perhaps you might run your rule across it.

                              While we’re on the subject I might also ask, those of you familiar with Froude and other assorted dark arts, to take a quick look at an idea for a hybrid Emergency Towing/Extended Patrol Vessel, using another unorthodox design, over on the ETV thread.

                              Concrete

                              The enthusiasm for the laying down and digging up of concrete as expressed by morpheus and ropebag gladdens the heart! Almost to the point where I’m genuinely disappointed that it won’t be necessary just yet. However you will find my thoughts on Lebensraum for an expanding Naval Service over on the Drydocking thread.
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 18 April 2016, 01:11. Reason: Making sense of comments between posting and publication

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                              • Vessel Capabilities




                                It's very easy to become focused on what an empowering asset a vessel like this would be for the Naval Service, the Defence Forces, and for the State. In the broader context, I believe it's just as important to highlight the amount of good that a vessel like this could do in the world, and the even greater amount of good that it could enable to be done.

                                Humanitarian and disaster relief are obvious initial examples, and sadly at present, there is no shortage of such work to be done on European shores. Besides mass SAR operations, this capable and flexible vessel could easily find itself tasked for critical emergency aid delivery, as a hospital ship, in flooding relief tasks, earthquake rescue support, or for the purposes of civilian or military evacuation.

                                Then there are the roles that the Naval Service would now be able to undertake, even to lead, where it has previously lacked capability. Anti-piracy patrols, perhaps in conjunction with Finnish air assets and Swedish Marines, would be an example.

                                Beyond that, the Navy would be in a position to assist the Army, the Air Corps, and the Gardaí in the fulfilment of their own international engagement missions. Between the delivery and collection of Army ISTAR assets for annual exercises in Scandinavia or Germany, the MRV could carry out an annual trade and goodwill tour of the Baltic.

                                While carrying a Mechanised Company Group, the 139 Logistic would also have enough capacity to carry Air Corps assets, for exercises in conjunction with our closest peacekeeping partners. These capabilities would allow the establishment of regular bilateral exercises home and away and, of course, speed the timely and safe deployment of joint Irish-Finnish peacekeeping contingents.

                                All of this is, of course, in addition to greatly enhancing the Navy's ability to carry out its existing mandate to protect, defend, and support the State and its interests, including the Irish EEZ.

                                I believe that, once we acquire such a vessel, we’ll wonder how we ever managed without one. The need for, and utility of, a second will be so obvious as to be irresistible. (A Nine ship Navy anyone?) I’m very confident that within two decades we’ll be operating a fleet of four such vessels.

                                Defensive Suite

                                Threats in a humanitarian, peacekeeping, or peace enforcement context are more likely to be external, rather than internal, to any situation we are engaging with. The most likely modes of attack are well known, and to this end, we absolutely need a combined air/surface Close In Weapons System. A method of medium range air defence and a competent means of dealing with improvised underwater attack would follow very closely in priority, partly because of the less than ideal success probability of any CIWS system, and partly for reasons probably better not discussed in public. A more potent main gun would be desirable to provide covering fire for peacekeepers finding themselves in extremis.

                                The Exocets, ASROC, and Tomahawks can wait for the mid-life upgrades.

                                As somewhere to begin I’d suggest taking a look at a stripped down version of the South African Valour Class frigate's suite. It may be dated by this stage but, it would probably be good value for money and, would be more than capable of dealing with the threats most likely to be encountered on any peacekeeping or peace enforcement mission.

                                An expanded but not necessarily updated (too expensive!) version of the Swedish Visby Corvette set could be a good fit. A kink here is that the AA system integration was never completed, so that’s something that the Navy would need to find a lot more about before considering it seriously. The Army and Air Corps already use the land based version of Saab’s Giraffe radar so that’s a big plus.

                                The common feature in both options is the South African firm Denel, manufacturer of the Valour’s CIWS and its Umkhonto SAM missiles, also supplier of same to the Finnish Navy. They are apparently keen, competent, and competitively priced. They are also looking to expand their European customer base. If only there was a suitable dockyard, somewhere in the Cork area looking for an owner, from where they could service their European clients...

                                Sealift Capacity

                                From previously shown calculations the Crossover 139L is the smallest possible vessel capable of carrying the equipment for a full EU ISTAR group. There’s about 10 lane meters of space left on the flight deck for a sneaky smoking area. Every other nook and cranny is jammed, the vehicle decks, the hangar; everything.

                                I’ve left about 120 sleeping places in case there’s no secure airport or port for peacekeeping troops to disembark, so under crush conditions they can at least hot bunk for 48 hours. A third in the bunks, a third in the mess, and a third in the smoking area. They’ll all be stark raving mad by the time they get off!

                                Any information that can help me refine or correct these calculations would, of course, be appreciated.

                                Death Ray CIWS

                                X-RayOne, it’s like you were reading my mind. Doubtless you’re aware of the next generation hypersonic, swarming, self-targeting, multiple independently targeted large warhead anti-shipping missiles. Yes, a death ray CIWS would be ideal, the next best thing currently available is allegedly the RIM-116 rolling airframe missile, or the Orlikon system proffered by JetJock. In my considered view, the best CIWS currently available is a Type 45 destroyer between you and any hostiles. The Denel 35mm twin is, not a preferable but, an acceptable choice for our purposes between now and the mid-life upgrades.


                                Warship Point Defence Thread
                                Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 21 April 2016, 22:26. Reason: Link to Warship Point Defence Thread

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