EPV for naval service

[DeV]

As ever, you've got to decide what you want first - is it a 5,000 ton OPV with room for ten TEU and a party pack of Haribo, or a 20,000 ton logistics ship with a GPMG and a loudhailer - or some unholy cut and shut abortion of a ginger stepchild that tries to do both and does neither?

Is that you're opinion of the Vard design?

Depends.

If it's a logs/amphib vessel operating on purely Irish tasks then it's a capable vessel (but probably shit for chasing fishing boats) but if it's something to be used on a European level, whether HADR or defence/security, then it's pretty woeful as as a logistics ship (third of the lane metres of a Bay Class, a fifth of the LM of a Point Class), so (for a task force commander) simply not worth the effort required to protect it.

A task force commander has a finite number of escorts - and of course their capabilities will be variable - that will give him/her a finite number of ships he can protect. He's simply not going to chose to take a ship (all other things being equal), that has 400+ LM and 300 bodies over a ship with 1000+ LM and 700 bodies.

It's also worth noting that the Vard ship has a very light armament - that could undoubtedly be significantly uprated, and I'd being looking at CWIS in its many versions for that - but its price would go up sharply when you put a pair of Phalanx, jamming gear, decoys, a pair of RWS 30mm, and of course a helicopter. Something like an EC-135 would be quite useful as a reece/communication tool, but without one the ship, acting on its own, would be significantly inhibited.

From what I’ve heard the DF knows what it wants, the WP15 supports it (but is vague enough that they may not get it), DoD stance (.... at a guess I would say they want a rowing board capable of deploying 3 personnel armed with 9mm , other Government Departments probably supportive of the DF view (possible exception being DPER).

We will never be likely to be seeking to deploy a Mech Inf Bn across a beach under fire. Irish needs are different to other countries.

Look at the Vard designs that the P50s and P60s, were originally based on - they are similar but very different. Nothing to say that the MRV (if based on this Vard design) wouldn’t be similar in this regard (eg could have a 76mm, a few 20mm’s, smaller flight deck, no hanger etc etc

[hptmurphy]

Might not be a cheap option; Project Resolve the Canadian conversion of the tanker MS Asterix to act as an interim AOR (until their new even more wildly expensive versions of the Berlin class arrive) is C$700m, €465m. To put that into comparison the Dutch paid €363m for the JSS Karel Doorman and the Norwegians €135m for the AOR HNoMS Maud.

Sometimes it is faster and cheaper to build new rather than to convert, not always but most times.

It appears that the Canadian Navy are happy enough to hang onto the Asterix well beyond what was envisaged because it has worked out so well.

Given our ships are built to Lloyds standards as opposed to Naval standards any conversion is going to be cheaper than a Naval build

[ropebag]

...

We will never be likely to be seeking to deploy a Mech Inf Bn across a beach under fire. Irish needs are different to other countries....

Comforting perhaps, but actually incorrect.

Turning up at a destroyed port with HADR aid after the world's biggest hurricane/earthquake actually looks a lot like D-Day.

If Oxfam designed and built a ship who's purpose was to to go to post-apocolyptic Carribbean islands with JCB's, water purification plants, a field hospital, matting for a runway, bridging gear and a million packets of custard creams it would look almost exactly like a Bay Class, or an Albion class or a Karel Doorman. the physics of moving stuff from a ship to land don't change regardless of what you're moving or who's doing it.

[paul g]

The original planning for the epv tended for in 2007 started around 2003 and therefore predates Liberia and Chad missions both of which will inform the design of the present ship especially the helicopter debacle in Chad. The vard design would have been a force multiplier in Liberia where long range patrols were deployed from the Dutch marines ship to great effect. The battalion deployed to Liberia would have been accommodated for example.

As for armament its a ship that is going to spend most of its life in hadr and peace support missions in Africa and possibly the Caribbean the 25/30mm cannon It has armament that is more then adequate for west African navies and Air Force capabilities especially if it deploys with other EU forces.

If you think about what the Df does , has done and the political will for them to do in the future something like the vard design is ideal for potential missions which will be the Liberia/Chad type. It might not be what the British would want but then again nobody in the EU really cares what they think anymore

[DeV]

The Vard design could probably carry IRCON for an EUBG or a Coy Group plus... and that would probably use of the flight deck for vehicles/containers

[The Usual Suspect]

Sweden's experience with deploying troops to Chad raised the question of whether the RSwN had a requirement for an upgraded amphibious capability. In 2008 Swedish soldiers were deployed in Chad. ..[They] were originally scheduled for deployment in December 2007, but equipment shortages and increasing violence in Chad resulted in extended delays. As a result, the six month mission was reduced to four months. After accounting for transport time and other preparations, the time that Swedish troops actually spent carrying out their mission was reduced to four to six weeks, to be withdrawn before the onset of the rainy season in June.

The newspapers Svenksa Dagbladet (SvD) and Göteborgs-Posten (GP) both argued that the government should either devote more money to the operation, or simply refrain from sending troops in the first place. GP calls the current circumstances "indefensible" and urges the minister to act quickly or risk having "a glow of shame" be the only lasting impression from Sweden's mission to Chad. The tabloid Aftonbladet did not mince words in its frustration over the situation, calling it "a terrible waste of resources and not morally appropriate" that so much money be devoted to so short a mission. "It sounds rather remarkable that bad weather could force home a Swedish peacekeeping force after just a few weeks. As far as we can tell the refugee camps will still be there—even if it rains."

- Globalsecurity.org

There was quite a detailed debate over the desirability of a dual-role vessel; one which could deliver naval infantry and/or support two corvettes on an extended overseas mission, or a more capable multi-role vessel that could provide expeditionary headquarters, medical support, repair & maintenance, fire support etc.

The multi-role ship solution ... enables us to maximise our sealift capability, which is generally needed for a short duration during the initial phases of an operation, and then shift to the logistic support role, supporting both naval units as well as potentially units ashore if needed.

- Globalsecurity.org

Amongst others, two Ro-Ro derived concepts were considered..


145 to 160 meters
12,000 to 15,000 tonnes (full load)
Ro-Ro deck of approximately 1,250 m2 (420 vehicle lane metres) or 10 CB-90s
Cargo space (weather deck) 900 m2 cargo on the weather deck
Two fast supply craft, on davits.
Crew of 55-60
Naval Infantry up to 400 troops



Displacement 13,430 tonnes
Total cargo deck area will be equal to 2,150 m2 (720 vehicle lane metres)
No docking facilities, but facilities for up to 12 CB-90s, which can be set afloat by means of a slip or a crane.
Two NH90 helicopters
Naval Infantry up to 170 troops

There's a good deal of overlap, and a good deal of divergence from what we're discussing here. Not least in the absolute size and endurance of the vessel. But transporting 12 CB-90s, and supporting them for a limited period of time, is something that the Vard design should be able to do standing on it's head.

[Laners]

SAR mission's , i bet the Green Party would like the sound of that .

[DeV]

Vard have been showcasing the 7313 at IMDEX Asia, alongside a 100m LST,


https://vardmarine.com/vard-marine-e...-in-singapore/

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news...support-ships/

https://youtu.be/MB_q89maFcA

[Graylion]

Guys, I just found this. I dunno whether it has been discussed in the last 25 pages or so, but it strikes me as a very interesting idea:

Fassmer Flex Patrol 90

[Sparky42]

Guys, I just found this. I dunno whether it has been discussed in the last 25 pages or so, but it strikes me as a very interesting idea:

Fassmer Flex Patrol 90

At first glance I would say the boat bays are very low.

[ropebag]

My immediate thought is that a lot of stuff that normally sits on the deck has been shoved below decks in order to get a very marginal gain - the forward Heli deck.

Obviously I can imagine circumstances in which being able to launch and recover two large helicopters at the same time would be useful, but a) the number of times in the ships life where that would be really useful, and be the actual, real life impact of only using one Heli deck and not to are going to be pretty limited.

I can have a Chinook loaded, and taking off, with forty blokes, mortars, ammunition, a locating radar and a Starstreak missile post in about 3 minutes from the deck of an Albion class ship. Having the helicopters land one at a time, instead of two at a time, is no real handicap.

[Graylion]

Have a better read of the spec sheet. 120 lane metres, 240 embarked troups, up to 50 modular hospital, RoRo ramps etc. The forward helo deck is a gimmick IMO - and possibly a way to store some of the 30 TEU

[na grohmiti]

It is the same size as our most recent opvs.
So no.

[ancientmariner]

It is the same size as our most recent opvs.
So no.

Except the beam is 17m and draft 4.2m. Even today the bigger navies are saying that troops can only be brought effectively to where they are required by sea transport. Likewise bringing aid to where it is needed in a sustainable fashion is also more a maritime based project. Single large helos are good for insertions and tasks but leaves AFV's and containers for deployment by other means. If we stay in the range of 120m by 19m we would be in a useful range.

[Graylion]

It is the same size as our most recent opvs.
So no.

No, it is not. 3200 t displacement.

- 240 troops or ecavuees
- modular 50 bed hospital
- 30+ TEU
- 110 lane meter @ 3.5 m or 180 lane meter @ 2.5 m wide

this could deploy a company of cav or do some serious humanitarian work. And be a serious OPV.

Annotation 2019-07-23 124748.png

And the fact that it doesn't look much bigger might be a serious selling point for politicians.

[Tempest]

Specs say it can take max 57mm main weapon, so no commonality there. Also, it's pig ugly

[na grohmiti]

There doesn't appear to be any space for crew or embarked accomodation. Unless everyone lives in bunks on the vehicle deck.
2 helipads and offset armament may look nice to you, but it is only practical to layout a ship in this way and also expect to do EEZ patrol is if you have a crew in single digits.
People have to live on these ships. Our crews have become accustomed to, and rightly deserve, a certain level of accomodation space and comfort. I cannot see how a ship of this size could achieve that.

[ropebag]

So now we know what the design team sacrificed to get two helidecks and all those lane metres into a ship that size.

The crew.

Spectacular...

[Graylion]

There's a lot of freeboard there. Again, this ship is a lot bigger than the OPVs. But I do fear that crew accommodation is probably cramped. The 240 temporaries are liable to be bunk accommodation, but even permanent crew might be tight. So I get the point, this probably won't work on that count alone.

[ropebag]

The 240 isn't bunked, it's on the vehicle deck.

I don't know if you've ever spent a week living on the vehicle deck of an LPD, but it's not much fun.

[DeV]

The 240 isn't bunked, it's on the vehicle deck.

I don't know if you've ever spent a week living on the vehicle deck of an LPD, but it's not much fun.

Disliked in error

And that will be instead of the vehicles etc, not in addition

[na grohmiti]

There's a lot of freeboard there. Again, this ship is a lot bigger than the OPVs. But I do fear that crew accommodation is probably cramped. The 240 temporaries are liable to be bunk accommodation, but even permanent crew might be tight. So I get the point, this probably won't work on that count alone.

You keep saying that it is not the same size or it is a lot bigger than the OPVs. It isnt. 90m is 90m. 90m doesn't change if the displacement or draft changes. It's still 90m.

[Graylion]

You keep saying that it is not the same size or it is a lot bigger than the OPVs. It isnt. 90m is 90m. 90m doesn't change if the displacement or draft changes. It's still 90m.

But the size is defined by the displacement, not the length. Length is one of 3 dimensions.

[na grohmiti]

Tell that to the big waves in an Atlantic storm. The LOA is the most important dimension when dealing with crests and troughs.

[ancientmariner]

You keep saying that it is not the same size or it is a lot bigger than the OPVs. It isnt. 90m is 90m. 90m doesn't change if the displacement or draft changes. It's still 90m.

I don't like the ship because it is too gimmicky. Helicopters landing forward on the Bridge eyeline is a nuisance, and is usually reserved for ships with no where else to land them , like an offshore supply vessel. There is proportionality between a ships length, beam and draft if you wish to have a sea kindly vessel. The vessel could be rejigged but it couldn't be done on 90m which would work out at 90m X 15m X 4m . The 90.9m x 17m X 4.7m is a floating joke and seems to be under powered using OPV 80 power train. The 300kw thruster probably needs upgrading also. If you want to build at 17m beam then you need to go to 102m length and 5m draft, and up the power to give the proposed speeds and ranges.