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  1. #1
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    Impact of DF or DOD Policies

    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The Vard design could probably carry IRCON for an EUBG or a Coy Group plus... and that would probably use of the flight deck for vehicles/containers
    The Government in answer to a Deputy Healy In October 2018, has indicated that it is proceeding to conduct a procedure for the replacement of LE EITHNE, with an MRV ,at an approximate cost of 200m Euro. The Deputy has insular land bound tendencies and was proposing that it should be cancelled. Their are no friends when it comes to improving the States responses to international emergencies or requests for HADR assistance. I think we will have to await for responses from possible contractors and rely on our experts to make viable productive choices with a range of role capabilities.

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    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The Government in answer to a Deputy Healy In October 2018, has indicated that it is proceeding to conduct a procedure for the replacement of LE EITHNE, with an MRV ,at an approximate cost of 200m Euro. The Deputy has insular land bound tendencies and was proposing that it should be cancelled. Their are no friends when it comes to improving the States responses to international emergencies or requests for HADR assistance. I think we will have to await for responses from possible contractors and rely on our experts to make viable productive choices with a range of role capabilities.
    You’d be surprised.....
    Enda Kenny announced he was sending a ship to the Med on the news

    1 Government department attempted to block it ... it wasn’t Foreign Affairs (who would see the MRV as an excellent tool)
    Last edited by DeV; 25th May 2019 at 13:25.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    You’d be surprised.....
    Enda Kenny announced he was sending a ship to the Med on the news

    1 Government department attempted to block it ... it wasn’t Foreign Affairs (who would see the MRV as an excellent tool)
    FFS, what a joke from the Department that attempted to block it, was it going to cost too much for them? As you say an MRV if it's used extensively for International operations would be a handy tool for Foreign Affairs.

  5. #4
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    FFS, what a joke from the Department that attempted to block it, was it going to cost too much for them? As you say an MRV if it's used extensively for International operations would be a handy tool for Foreign Affairs.
    They said it was illegal as not a UN mandated mission.... then the Defence (Amendment) Act 2006 was pointed out
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../en/print#sec3

    It wasn’t just DF and DoD in the room when this happened it included other Departments

    This isn’t heresay either

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    They said it was illegal as not a UN mandated mission.... then the Defence (Amendment) Act 2006 was pointed out
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2.../en/print#sec3

    It wasn’t just DF and DoD in the room when this happened it included other Departments

    This isn’t heresay either
    We are in any event members of the UN and also a member of the EU and its Agreements. Our politicians often mention traditional neutrality, however it was born at a time that the only viable alliance would have been with our adjacent and lodging neighbour. We were not in a mind to help so we used neutrality as means of indicating displeasure in our fragmented circumstances, however we did allow our nationals to join other forces in their thousands. we also bent rules so as not to impede general defence of the islands.

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  8. #6
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    We are in any event members of the UN and also a member of the EU and its Agreements. Our politicians often mention traditional neutrality, however it was born at a time that the only viable alliance would have been with our adjacent and lodging neighbour. We were not in a mind to help so we used neutrality as means of indicating displeasure in our fragmented circumstances, however we did allow our nationals to join other forces in their thousands. we also bent rules so as not to impede general defence of the islands.
    The point is that DoD tried to block a decision by An Taoiseach

    Fortunately (in this case) they don’t even know the legislation that governs them.

    Thankfully the DF had already done their homework

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The point is that DoD tried to block a decision by An Taoiseach

    Fortunately (in this case) they don’t even know the legislation that governs them.

    Thankfully the DF had already done their homework
    I agree that DoD is a blocking agency and isn't supportive of steps to establish and maintain an efficient fighting force. They see their duty to minimise costs and not be perturbed at loss of an operational norm. Hopefully we will continue with overseas training and participation where possible.

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  11. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I agree that DoD is a blocking agency and isn't supportive of steps to establish and maintain an efficient fighting force. They see their duty to minimise costs and not be perturbed at loss of an operational norm. Hopefully we will continue with overseas training and participation where possible.
    What i’m Saying is DoD tried to block Op Pontus (a SAR mission) nothing to do with a fighting force at all

  12. #9
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    What i’m Saying is DoD tried to block Op Pontus (a SAR mission) nothing to do with a fighting force at all
    Why?
    Time for another break I think......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    SAR mission's , i bet the Green Party would like the sound of that .
    Ryan last night was already saying he'd want to pull out of PESCO as part of any coalition...

  14. #11
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Why?
    Only they know the answer To that

    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    SAR mission's , i bet the Green Party would like the sound of that .
    ?
    It was done as in finished

    We aren’t talking about a future MRV deployment here we are talking about a humanitarian SAR mission that the NS conducted in the Med.... that DoD try to prevent from happening (after the Taoiseach had already announced that Ireland was going to send a ship to the EU and the media)

  15. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Only they know the answer To that


    ?
    It was done as in finished

    We aren’t talking about a future MRV deployment here we are talking about a humanitarian SAR mission that the NS conducted in the Med.... that DoD try to prevent from happening (after the Taoiseach had already announced that Ireland was going to send a ship to the EU and the media)
    What i was getting at is . The Green Party would only stomach a MRV if it was packaged and dressed up as a humanitarian aid asset .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  17. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    What i’m Saying is DoD tried to block Op Pontus (a SAR mission) nothing to do with a fighting force at all
    They also tried to have the EMER class unarmed and were then equipped with old stock armaments. They would not provide for the main armament of EITHNE which had to be found within Budgets, on the direction of Carl O'S. We had to have a decision on a critical constructional alteration which was sanctioned at HEO level. The cost was 2000 Euros and it almost cost the life of the HEO , hastened his retirement, and ended his life in care. All through pressure from his superiors .I can well accept your own comments on blocking.

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    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Why?
    Because the military wanted it, so it must be bad.

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    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Impact of DF or DOD Policies

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...dant-1.3906271

    Interesting article in the Irish Times, written by a former (very recently) officer. This is the caliber of officer we should be trying to retain.

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  23. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Because the military wanted it, so it must be bad.
    Op Pontus was mainly a successful rescue mission for the many thousands of migrants trying to cross, or forced to cross from North Africa to Southern Europe but mainly through Italian borders or Islands. Running parallel to this Operation was Op Sophia which was mainly a military intervention designed to stop the migration flow in a controllable manner. We left Op Pontus and joined Op Sophia as a more appropriate Naval Mission.

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  25. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019...efence-forces/
    Some very good quotes in this

    And the PSPC report is due to be published today

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  27. #18
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Because the military wanted it, so it must be bad.
    If I remember correctly, it was at a European Council meeting that it was announced at

    The DF probably weren’t even asked.... An Taoiseach probably made a unilateral decision

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  29. #19
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    Liveline was all over it today too. The three retired DF people speaking exposed the problem for all. The DoD is not fit for purpose and works to frustrate the activities of the Defence Forces at every opportunity.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  31. #20
    Corporal irishrgr's Avatar
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    Interesting news day for the DoD, lays bare the complete lack of connection to defense matters by the leadership of the department charged with the defense portfolio. I see even a retired GO spoke out, well done him. Shame it has to come to this. Awkward timing for Leo too with Brexit looming & the outcome of the EU elections. Irelands not a big defense player in Europe by any means, but this sort of thing won't be well received in Brussels either. Leo needs friends in the EU and doesn't want to be asked "how will you secure the EU/NI border Leo when your own DF seem to be falling apart?"

    I'm willing to bet there are some DoD HEO's reaching for the upset tummy medicine tonight. I hope some good comes of it, the troops deserve better. However, as has been pointed out here before, the DF don't really have a constituency in Dail Eireann, so other than the opposition taking a few swipes at the govt, there really isn't anyone to carry a torch for the DF in the Dail. Especially the Minister himself, he seems to be the last one to advocate for his own agency.
    Be interesting to watch.

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  33. #21
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    It will take Trump coming over in a few weeks an ATCP request coming in and the relevant DF Officer to say no!, insufficient personnel available for something to be done

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  35. #22
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Strange how RTE reported this morning that the PSPC was to report today and in the afternoon it became a few weeks

    So:
    - DoD (and possibly DPER) is getting ready to brief against (positive) recommendations ?
    - (positive or negative) recommendations need to be buried on a bad news day (so there isn’t an outcry from the DF air other unions)
    -

  36. #23
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    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-38157500.html
    Taoiseach has 'absolute confidence' in Defence Minister despite claims he is 'out of his depth'

    Philip Ryan
    28 May 2019 6:41 PM

    TAOISEACH Leo Varadkar has said he has full confidence in Defence Minister Paul Kehoe after he was severely criticised by the former head of the Army Ranger Wing.

    The Taoiseach also shot down the possibility of making the Department of Defence a full Cabinet ministry despite calls from former soldiers and Opposition politicians.

    Speaking ahead of an EU Summit in Brussels, Mr Varadkar said: “I have absolute support and confidence in minister Kehoe.

    “He is a minister at the Cabinet table and has the same weight as any other minister at the Cabinet table,” he added.

    The Taoiseach said he would have to scrap another department if he was to make the Department of Defence a full Cabinet ministry.

    “I've yet to hear a proposal from anyone whether they think that should be the Department of Children or the Department of Rural Affairs or which one they think it should be,” he said.


    Retired Commandant Cathal Berry, who headed up the elite Ranger Wing, described Mr Kehoe as an “empty suit” who is “completely out of his depth” and “simply not up to the job”.

    “As a junior minister he has been the permanent presence in the Department of Defence since 2011 and has therefore presided over the demise of the Defence Forces,” Mr Commandant Berry said.

    “To reduce a highly effective and proud organisation to an utterly demoralised outfit over an eight-year period is some achievement,” he added.

    In Brussels, the Taoiseach acknowledged the former Army Ranger’s criticism but insisted the Government was investing in the Defence Forces.

    “I heard former Commandant Barry's interview this morning and it certainly was a stinging criticism and I think sometimes Government needs to listen to criticism and sometimes take it on board,” he said.

    An extra €50m is going in this year and none of it is being handed back. It is going into new vessels, new aircraft, new equipment, better barracks and better pay and pension for our defence forces staff.

    A Department of Defence spokesperson said the Public Service Pay Commission’s report on soldiers pay and conditions will be considered by the Cabinet in the coming weeks.

    “Like other areas of the public sector, members of the Defence Forces are benefiting from pay increases in accordance with national public service pay agreements. The focus of these increases is weighted in favour of those on lower pay,” he added.

    Online Editors
    Lets see you could merge Department for Children with the Department for Education and merge the Department for Rural Affairs with the Department for Communities and local government. Allowing Defence to becomes a Full Ministry again and leaving a spare "Ministry" at cabinet level for an emergency situation.

    But that would make sense and all leave those TDs who you need to support your government unhappy.
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

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  38. #24
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Making Children a full cabinet position was an election manifesto commitment . 15 is your limit according to Bunreacht
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  40. #25
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    Initially they teamed defence and justice together under shatter so the other wexican could be a minister, thus guaranteeing a government. They forgot to change it back after.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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