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  1. #2376
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ringaskiddy an option?
    No. Will be too busy.
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  3. #2377
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ringaskiddy an option?
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    No. Will be too busy.
    Developments in Haulbowline within a compatible timeline?

    Or a temporary/permanant facility at Whitegate?

    Am I correct in my understanding that loading draught may be a constraining factor under current conditions in the basin?
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

  4. #2378
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Folding rotor blade retro-fit for AW139s is concievable. Practical insight could be gained from the Swedes who have operated an army/navy light utility squadron of AW109s for several years. Unnavalised 'green' helicopters generally do quite badly in a naval environment, not least because of the pervasive effects of salt water/air.
    As you say, "green" helicopters will suffer even if we did retro-fit them for folding rotors, how much would that cost anyway? And of course what's the price tag for proper "navalised 139s"?

  5. #2379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    As you say, "green" helicopters will suffer even if we did retro-fit them for folding rotors, how much would that cost anyway? And of course what's the price tag for proper "navalised 139s"?
    Ah yeah, it's a whole other thing.. I'm open to correction, but I believe the Brits have retro-fitted folding rotors on everything from Chinooks to Apaches, at least temporarily.

    US Marines, for the most part, use frankencopters.. blend of Navalised/Unnavalised.

    *PS Definitely have a chat with the Swedes to ease ourselves into the practicalities of the concept. Might be Swedish roundels in the diagram anyway. :-)

    *PPS Bristow have, over the last two years, been renewing semi-navalised SAR AW139s with larger AW189s for their HM Coastguard contracts. Detailed information not immediately available.
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 13th May 2019 at 23:47.
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  6. #2380
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Developments in Haulbowline within a compatible timeline?

    Or a temporary/permanant facility at Whitegate?

    Am I correct in my understanding that loading draught may be a constraining factor under current conditions in the basin?
    Whitegate has no quayside. What space there is with sufficient depth is already earmarked for an LNG storage terminal.
    Both beam and draft are a limiting factor for ships intending to cross the basin sill.
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  8. #2381
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    Forgive me, but is anyone, anywhere, operating AW139's with folding blades? Has AgustaWestland tested and certified a folding blade option for the AW139?

    If not, are you expecting the State will pay for this R&D?

    Cheers.

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  10. #2382
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Whitegate has no quayside. What space there is with sufficient depth is already earmarked for an LNG storage terminal.
    Both beam and draft are a limiting factor for ships intending to cross the basin sill.
    Could the old IFI pier be an option? What's the Port of Cork's plans for it short to medium term?

  11. #2383
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    Forgive me, but is anyone, anywhere, operating AW139's with folding blades? Has AgustaWestland tested and certified a folding blade option for the AW139?

    If not, are you expecting the State will pay for this R&D?

    Cheers.
    Had assumed this capability on the basis of Swedish AW109s deployed on HMDS Absalon for anti-piracy missions off East Africa coast. And yes, blade folding is a manufacturer's option on the 109.

    Haven't been able to find a direct reference to it on the 139, but have been able (in haste) to find a reference to an after-market rotor maintenence step that can be installed on the aircraft, to aid in the process of manual blade folding.
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 14th May 2019 at 11:03. Reason: HMDS not HMDLS
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  12. #2384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Could the old IFI pier be an option? What's the Port of Cork's plans for it short to medium term?
    Using it as a Bulk Jetty. Old IFI fertilizer augers were removed recently. Everything Port of Cork is moving downstream. City quays all earmarked for residential development, leaving lots of quayside for non cargo.
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  14. #2385
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Using it as a Bulk Jetty. Old IFI fertilizer augers were removed recently. Everything Port of Cork is moving downstream. City quays all earmarked for residential development, leaving lots of quayside for non cargo.
    AFAIK the joint venture into Mahon Point redevelopement do not envisage using the facility for RO-RO traffic or Container services. The Vard-7-313 would need a mooring link designed for Home port. Most ports use a floating link so that tide has minimal effect. The difficulty is what happens at a non-descript arrival port?

  15. #2386
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    I would say that is when the 20 tonne crane on the roof becomes worthwhile. In the circumstances I'm sure the engineer corps could come up with some temporary solution.
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  16. #2387
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    ]Are the berths at Rushbrook dockyard unsuitable ? , and how feasible would it be to widen the entrance to the basin at Haulbowline .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  17. #2388
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    Thought I was joking, when it occured to me first, but there's an excellent and entirely unused ro-ro facility at Dún Laoighaire. Even has a marshalling yard in excess of 1,000 lane-metres. Closer to The Curragh too.
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  19. #2389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Are the berths at Rushbrook dockyard unsuitable ? , and how feasible would it be to widen the entrance to the basin at Haulbowline .
    Not feasable at all. Listed structure, cofferdam for entire basin to allow works on entrance, doing so would put the entire basin out of use for a couple of years, at best.

    I'm sure the owners of Rushbrooke dockyard would have no problem at all leasing out the idle former fit out berth should the Naval service , and DoD so require. It is also a very secure berth, 200m Long with great depth. Port of Cork occasionally use the western quay for handling cargo, but there is still plenty of space for a 130m vessel, if sought.

    Of more concern is where the ship would be drydocked when necessary. Rushbrooke is too narrow. Yards in France seem to offer the best solution. Brexit will rule out most UK yards, unless Scotland goes independant.
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  21. #2390
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    Thought I was joking, when it occured to me first, but there's an excellent and entirely unused ro-ro facility at Dún Laoighaire. Even has a marshalling yard in excess of 1,000 lane-metres. Closer to The Curragh too.
    Stena removed the link span a few years ago, if anything Rosslare has plenty of Ro/Ro capacity available .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  23. #2391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Stena removed the link span a few years ago, if anything Rosslare has plenty of Ro/Ro capacity available .
    Hope the UK parliament would be ok with using it for that.

  24. #2392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarsfield View Post
    Hangar for 4 , flight deck for 2 , all our AW 139 Wolfhounds! Ah if only we had bought ones with auto folding blades. NB, remember Eithne's hangar was wide enough for Dauphins to not need to fold their rotors.
    Eithnes hanger needed the Dauphin to fold its rotors... believe me on this one.....
    Time for another break I think......

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  26. #2393
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Eithnes hanger needed the Dauphin to fold its rotors... believe me on this one.....
    No worries. It was a conversation that was between naval officers but it was a long time ago and my memory has let me down. If anyone has photos of the hanger then and now it would be interesting to see them.
    Sarsfield

  27. #2394
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    The folding rotor thing is losing the run of ourselves at the moment though.

    If I remember correctly, the white paper says land on facilities for a chopper, not necessarily hangerage. While the Vard illustration shows two hangers, there is no reason to believe that the hangers will be used for the ships own chopper, or that the ships own chopper would actually be the AW139.

    In the event that this was to be the case, although there are photos out there of AW139's from either Malta or Cyprus doing touch and go off a helideck in a pretty calm med, I'm not sure that there are any navalised AW139's in operation with any force. Most Naval AW's seem to be used for SAR from land bases.

    Remembering the Dauphins, wasn't there a Harpoon, different instrumentation and also strengthened under carriages, provided on the two naval versions?

    I'm no expert, but to me the under carriage on the AW139s seems both too small, too short and too weak to bang off a metal deck in SS 4/6 in the north Atlantic despite the ship size.
    Last edited by Herald; 14th May 2019 at 19:00.

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  29. #2395
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herald View Post
    The folding rotor thing is losing the run of ourselves at the moment though.

    If I remember correctly, the white paper says land on facilities for a chopper, not necessarily hangerage. While the Vard illustration shows two hangers, there is no reason to believe that the hangers will be used for the ships own chopper, or that the ships own chopper would actually be the AW139.

    In the event that this was to be the case, although there are photos out there of AW139's from either Malta or Cyprus doing touch and go off a helideck in a pretty calm med, I'm not sure that there are any navalised AW139's in operation with any force. Most Naval AW's seem to be used for SAR from land bases.

    Remembering the Dauphins, wasn't there a Harpoon, different instrumentation and also strengthened under carriages, provided on the two naval versions?

    I'm no expert, but to me the under carriage on the AW139s seems both too small, too short and too weak to bang off a metal deck in SS 4/6 in the north Atlantic despite the ship size.
    “Whilst this ship will not carry a helicopter. It will be enabled for helicopter operations....”

  30. #2396
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    Would the hanger / flight deck give the flexibility to use UAV's in the future. They do seem to be the coming thing, and would presumably be under the control of the service using them, doing away with inter-service rivalry.
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  31. #2397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    Would the hanger / flight deck give the flexibility to use UAV's in the future. They do seem to be the coming thing, and would presumably be under the control of the service using them, doing away with inter-service rivalry.
    They would, but the model /illustration has two positions on the Helideck, so over kill for UAV's. I can see the value of the Heli decks and hangers, and lets not forget that UAVs don't have the same value as a manned chopper on some of the missions that the EPV is targeted at, HADR/Hospital ship/ EUBG deployment etc.

    I'm just chewing the fat here really though, with the illustration coming to light, it throws up various questions with the Hangers included, do we use the Aws for just touch on/touch off? are the hangers for the choppers? are they maybe looking at more proven naval choppers? Or is it a case that tird party units could land on, and base off the ship for periods?

    Also, will the Tender be with an option for a second ship? (And the ramifications for manpower and numbers etc). Better that it was than have a little orphan Eithne situation .........

    In any case, the situation regarding equipment has come on in leaps and bounds in the last 21 years.

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  33. #2398
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    I'd advise reading between the lines regarding actual deployments: no Irish air component, troops yes, APC's yes, helicopters: provided by them out foreign.

    Not that there won't be photo ops.

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  35. #2399
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    Dammit, I'm thinking this is probably the nearest thing to an Irish Aircraft carrier I'll see in my lifetime, and yez had to rain on my parade!!

  36. #2400
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    Look we all know that the surge capability of the A******ule F-35B's is there.

    But the black budget isn't going to extend to folding rotors.

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