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  1. #2551
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I don't think we should limit ships size based on the dimensions of a graving dock who's owners have no interest in maintaining it or the associated facilities.
    The geographical fact is we are an island that needs to attempt to be self sufficient . Strategically being dependent on elswhere in Europe eliminates certainty of services , as , and when required. DPA closed it's drydock to make way for cruise liners and then binned priority for liners but still got rid of the Dock. In WW11 ISL took over the Cork Dockyard and kept their ships operational throughout that conflict with that Sole amenity. Our Pols. are totally sea blind and Harbour Boards are weak on ship repair necessity. Government detachment from the needs of the Maritime sector is puzzling.

  2. #2552
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    Mod, thread split to politics since the posts are about corruption not ships.
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  4. #2553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turkey View Post
    Mod, thread split to politics since the posts are about corruption not ships.
    Making a key point about selecting a large ship type for the Irish Naval Service . Wisdom requires that we can HOME port it and maintain it both afloat and in drydock. An EPV/MRV too big for facilities would be an embarrassment .

  5. #2554
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Making a key point about selecting a large ship type for the Irish Naval Service . Wisdom requires that we can HOME port it and maintain it both afloat and in drydock. An EPV/MRV too big for facilities would be an embarrassment .
    Could you elaborate on concrete reasons, rather than just referring to "wisdom"? What scenarios do you envision where this would be an issue? I'll add that a united Ireland might well happen soon and there is sufficiently sized drydock in Belfast.

  6. #2555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Could you elaborate on concrete reasons, rather than just referring to "wisdom"? What scenarios do you envision where this would be an issue? I'll add that a united Ireland might well happen soon and there is sufficiently sized drydock in Belfast.
    "Soon" might be overstating things more than a small bit, and even then you get into how the skill base at H&W has eroded as well.

  7. #2556
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Could you elaborate on concrete reasons, rather than just referring to "wisdom"? What scenarios do you envision where this would be an issue? I'll add that a united Ireland might well happen soon and there is sufficiently sized drydock in Belfast.
    I could come up with plenty of scenarios to "not" have our ships drydocked in Belfast regardless of a united Ireland .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

  8. #2557
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    Both true - France strikes me as more likely for the near future.

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  10. #2558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Could you elaborate on concrete reasons, rather than just referring to "wisdom"? What scenarios do you envision where this would be an issue? I'll add that a united Ireland might well happen soon and there is sufficiently sized drydock in Belfast.
    When HM government developed Haulbowline as a Naval Base in 1854 it also included a Dockyard and drydock capable of handling most large naval vessels up to Cruiser size. The Dock dimensions are 600 X 94 ft. and possibly the biggest drydock in Ireland outside of Belfast. The reasons for a naval Dock are those of definite planning and availability in emergencies. It would also obviate a distant tow in the event of a major failure.
    Belfast is always a possibility but, historic problems, as in the case of ILT Granuaile , could arise again. Until we can be sure of an immediate repair facility we must live by dimensional constraints imposed by DSG's Cork Dockyard, or re-establish the existing Naval Dock.

  11. #2559
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    Never mind drydocking (although it isn’t important) the physical size of the basin in Haulbowline limits the size of the MRV

    No point building a ship that can’t dock at the country’s only naval base

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  13. #2560
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Never mind drydocking (although it isn’t important) the physical size of the basin in Haulbowline limits the size of the MRV

    No point building a ship that can’t dock at the country’s only naval base
    It can get through the 94 foot opening, in it's proposed size , and with bow and stern thrusters could dock itself without tugs.

  14. #2561
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    When HM government developed Haulbowline as a Naval Base in 1854 it also included a Dockyard and drydock capable of handling most large naval vessels up to Cruiser size. The Dock dimensions are 600 X 94 ft. and possibly the biggest drydock in Ireland outside of Belfast. The reasons for a naval Dock are those of definite planning and availability in emergencies. It would also obviate a distant tow in the event of a major failure.
    Belfast is always a possibility but, historic problems, as in the case of ILT Granuaile , could arise again. Until we can be sure of an immediate repair facility we must live by dimensional constraints imposed by DSG's Cork Dockyard, or re-establish the existing Naval Dock.
    Where is that dock? Is that the dock at the end of the basin?

    In that case what are the maximum dimensions of the basin?

    But Ellida is available in different sizes ...
    Last edited by Graylion; 10th November 2019 at 23:42.

  15. #2562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Where is that dock? Is that the dock at the end of the basin?

    In that case what are the maximum dimensions of the basin?

    But Ellida is available in different sizes ...
    Dock is at the southern end of the basin and is usable for a repair berth, afloat, by ships within a range of dock dimensions 181m X 28m. There is a proposal to roof it and fit it out as a covered repair/ painting facility with adjacent technical shops and stores, and fitted with shore power, FW, and FF etc.

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  17. #2563
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Dock is at the southern end of the basin and is usable for a repair berth, afloat, by ships within a range of dock dimensions 181m X 28m. There is a proposal to roof it and fit it out as a covered repair/ painting facility with adjacent technical shops and stores, and fitted with shore power, FW, and FF etc.
    So the basin could take at least that size then?

  18. #2564
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    As originally designed the basin itself could be dried out, and anything within sit on its limestone floor. The engineering required to do this is restore the pump house (filled with concrete I believe) and rebuild the caisson. This topic has been well discussed in other threads.
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  19. #2565
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    As originally designed the basin itself could be dried out, and anything within sit on its limestone floor. The engineering required to do this is restore the pump house (filled with concrete I believe) and rebuild the caisson. This topic has been well discussed in other threads.
    Thanks, but not quite what I asked - what is the maximum that will fit in the basin?

  20. #2566
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    Already answered by ancient mariner. 181m × 28m is the entrance to the dock by the overall internal length. Max beam coming in would be no more than 26m, for safety but a lot of recent structures need to be removed first. You can see if you look on Google maps there is a pontoon for privately owned sailing craft on one side, and two concrete dolphins on the other side, used to stop ships loading or unloading from the cooling bay from getting caught on the stepped dock walls. The photos can be found elsewhere on this site.
    Modern best practice says the dock should be covered, but once equipped with a dockside or mobile crane that has a useful swl of at least 20000kg at the centre line of the dock then you can do most work. The heavy engineering work can still be done elsewhere.
    Again, this topic has been done to death elsewhere on this site.
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  22. #2567
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Already answered by ancient mariner. 181m × 28m is the entrance to the dock by the overall internal length. Max beam coming in would be no more than 26m, for safety but a lot of recent structures need to be removed first. You can see if you look on Google maps there is a pontoon for privately owned sailing craft on one side, and two concrete dolphins on the other side, used to stop ships loading or unloading from the cooling bay from getting caught on the stepped dock walls. The photos can be found elsewhere on this site.
    Modern best practice says the dock should be covered, but once equipped with a dockside or mobile crane that has a useful swl of at least 20000kg at the centre line of the dock then you can do most work. The heavy engineering work can still be done elsewhere.
    Again, this topic has been done to death elsewhere on this site.
    That is the dimensions of the dock - I am trying to tease out what would fit into the basin. Same beam but longer?

    I like the idea of reactivating the dock I must say though.

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  24. #2568
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    Longer? Do you understand how a dock works? You have to close one end with the ship inside to drain the water... you cant close one end if there is still a bit of ship sticking out.
    Jaysus.
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  25. #2569
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Longer? Do you understand how a dock works? You have to close one end with the ship inside to drain the water... you cant close one end if there is still a bit of ship sticking out.
    Jaysus.
    We are talking at cross purposes. I am not talking about the dock. I am talking about the harbour basin. You keep talking about the dock.

  26. #2570
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    If you mean fitting an actual ship into the basin to berth, that's not really a huge issue. Basin entrance is the same with as the dry dock. Because of the angle the entrance meets the channel and the danger of hitting a vessel within, 120m, 130m at a push could enter and leave the basin. But they dont need to as the oil wharf will accomodate ships much larger, and there is quay space just outside the basin entrance that is being put back into use.
    There are also other plans, discussed elsewhere, with photos.
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  28. #2571
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    The basin is also a dock. But there is a dock within the basin.
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  30. #2572
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    If you mean fitting an actual ship into the basin to berth, that's not really a huge issue. Basin entrance is the same with as the dry dock. Because of the angle the entrance meets the channel and the danger of hitting a vessel within, 120m, 130m at a push could enter and leave the basin. But they dont need to as the oil wharf will accomodate ships much larger, and there is quay space just outside the basin entrance that is being put back into use.
    There are also other plans, discussed elsewhere, with photos.
    Thanks. That is what I was thinking too. I was just a bit thrown by Dev's post. So from a mooring PoV the 200*30m ship would not be an issue and we can agree to disagree on the docking thing?

  31. #2573
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    Currently it would not be ideal, as we do not have the infrastructure to carry out the most mundane of maintenance tasks at home.
    Ships need their bottom surveyed regularly, this can only done when ship is out of the water. There is nowhere in the state we can do this.
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  33. #2574
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    If you mean fitting an actual ship into the basin to berth, that's not really a huge issue. Basin entrance is the same with as the dry dock. Because of the angle the entrance meets the channel and the danger of hitting a vessel within, 120m, 130m at a push could enter and leave the basin. But they dont need to as the oil wharf will accomodate ships much larger, and there is quay space just outside the basin entrance that is being put back into use.
    There are also other plans, discussed elsewhere, with photos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Thanks. That is what I was thinking too. I was just a bit thrown by Dev's post. So from a mooring PoV the 200*30m ship would not be an issue and we can agree to disagree on the docking thing?
    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...ydocking/page9

    The Spencer Jetty? Intended for temporary berthage at short notice as it limits the entrance to the basin

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Currently it would not be ideal, as we do not have the infrastructure to carry out the most mundane of maintenance tasks at home.
    Ships need their bottom surveyed regularly, this can only done when ship is out of the water. There is nowhere in the state we can do this.
    Cork Dockyard?

  34. #2575
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    In the absence of same, as current owners are intent on repurposing it, all the while failing to invest in equipment updates.
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