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  • Originally posted by sofa View Post
    Norway also has a strike rate of 1 in 4 when it drill a oil well
    We are not impoverished if we build E50m ships but our problem is forgetting to make them more viable as Naval ships. If as some have said Norway has twice our GDP, then why not have an Navy with at least half the Norwegian capability, including Kongsberg missile systems used by more than 60 Navies including possibly USN. I have said before any ship tasked to an enforcement role MUST be Good To Go. Buying hulls and engines, and then putting a gun on is very much Coastguard minus these days.

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    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      We are not impoverished if we build E50m ships but our problem is forgetting to make them more viable as Naval ships. If as some have said Norway has twice our GDP, then why not have an Navy with at least half the Norwegian capability, including Kongsberg missile systems used by more than 60 Navies including possibly USN. I have said before any ship tasked to an enforcement role MUST be Good To Go. Buying hulls and engines, and then putting a gun on is very much Coastguard minus these days.
      Because they spend 7.2 billion dollars on defence (and have done for decades), even if we went straight to 2% of GDP we couldn't match that and would need to spread it over all three services (and spend a huge chunk building up components that they don't have to), nor do we have an internal arms industry that can make use of such spending. I also don't get the point of mentioning the Anti Ship missile system to be honest (for various reasons from the USN not mounting any on most of the Burkes (the NSM is being touted for the LCS as the LCS is virtually toothless and a disaster of a project)) to the fact that there's plenty more suitable options to invest additional monies in (for example the Holland class doesn't mount ASM's, the future Batches of Rivers aren't planned to).

      Unless/Until we have a truly radical change in this nations foreign policy, at most we should be arguing for ships with defensive systems (CAMM/ESSM/RAM) that can protect the ship, we aren't going to be sinking any other nations warships.

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      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
        A floating graving dock is an asset, once you allow for mooring area, pontoon depth( the bottom bit on which the blocks and ship rests), a decent entry draft better than 6metres. You also need a trained crew and dockmaster. It would need to come with cranes, power, and sanitary facilities. Typically a 5000 Lifting capacity on about 132mX 35m would cost anywhere between Euro 5m/10m depending on age etc. However like getting a dog for a pet there is a lot of minding required and it needs a good safe home.
        Plus a lot of personnel to do the work

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        • The systems you mention have some of their genises in countering the drubbing received by naval and supply ships in San Carlos bay. The development is ongoing but all are anti-air in concept to cover up to 500 sq. miles or using PI, R squared, about a range of 12.5nm. Defending one's own ship needs a defence response capability in ALL the threat environments at sea. There are many systems out there designed for our size of vessel. All navies may arm ships selectively but when you are mainly of a sole type you have to think globally, on maybe a smaller scale, BUT make some attempt to meet Somali type threats to shipping.

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            The systems you mention have some of their genises in countering the drubbing received by naval and supply ships in San Carlos bay. The development is ongoing but all are anti-air in concept to cover up to 500 sq. miles or using PI, R squared, about a range of 12.5nm. Defending one's own ship needs a defence response capability in ALL the threat environments at sea. There are many systems out there designed for our size of vessel. All navies may arm ships selectively but when you are mainly of a sole type you have to think globally, on maybe a smaller scale, BUT make some attempt to meet Somali type threats to shipping.
            There's a fairly huge gulf between what a Somali threat to a ship on patrol and a peer combat situation of the Falklands though (ie RPG's against a full up air attack), let alone the Sub threats and the defensive system for each is different and considering the massive jump in price difference the question does have to be asked as to what we are planning to do and what threats we are going to face. Fitting a CWIS system like RAM/Phalanx and multiple sub 40mm weapons is a different bracket from ESSM/CAMM with the needed VLS/Radar systems in terms of demands/costs/hull design/supports.

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            • In any scenario where conflict is present or where a conflict zone is entered by a grey painted ship, it is likely to become a target or an adversary. Our predicament is we can only successfully conclude operations against unarmed trawlers or a compliant enemy. We Must gear up to a minimum of self defence in all dimensions. If we expend up to 100m on an MRV, we should be prepared to expend at least another 35m on a defence system and a similar amount over the life of the vessel to maintain operability. We can of course continue on a one boat one gun policy and keep our ships away from potentially hot missions. As I said previously we are heading for population growth with a growing GDP/GNP. We are also a member of the EU with implied Defence obligations. How should that develop or do we just supply office staff and do a few rescue tasks?
              Last edited by ancientmariner; 17 April 2016, 15:31.

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              • Agreed. We now have a big boy economy and are beginning to flirt with big boy responsibilities. Continuing to pretend we are Lichtenstein isn't going to fly forever. That means naval ships that can act the part if pressed, a radar system that can at least detect the tupolevs when they are running silent off the west coast in the path of commercial airliners and then, later, we might think about the army.

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                • We are not out of the PIGS woods by any measure yet. No way is any big public money going on expensive weaponry whilst services/housing are in dire straits and there is a rising clamour for pay rises in the public funded sector.

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                  • Still in trouble? Probably, yes. Now look carefully at the rest of the pigs. My point is that the Irish economy of 2016 is a very different beast to that of any period in our history. This is not Dev's 1959 hellhole, nor the flim flam game of the 1970s. We are nowhere near the 1980s either. People need to get their heads around the fact that economically, Ireland matters. A medium small deal becoming a medium deal. Our military mindset is based on a folk memory of being a pretend country which no longer applies.

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                    • But we are no where near 2000-2008 either

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                      • Foreign policy needs dictate defence capacity/capability and rightly so in a democracy.

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                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          But we are no where near 2000-2008 either
                          Which itself was a neverland fantasy which everyone could see had to end as early as 2000. I was certainly glad to sell the house in 2003 and move. I'd have made more money for another couple of years, but it was blindingly obvious what was going to happen and I'd have been gambling. But at the worst after 2008, the country was fundamentally better than at any time before the 1990s, and likely always will be. It's a new game.

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                          • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                            Which itself was a neverland fantasy which everyone could see had to end as early as 2000. I was certainly glad to sell the house in 2003 and move. I'd have made more money for another couple of years, but it was blindingly obvious what was going to happen and I'd have been gambling. But at the worst after 2008, the country was fundamentally better than at any time before the 1990s, and likely always will be. It's a new game.
                            While true there are other factors to consider, while ancientmariner is right for example on the expect profile of the population that also brings issues with increased demands from both the Health and Education sectors, and the post 08 rules that the Eurozone has adopted also mean tight margins for some time in terms of budgets, given the fracture state of politics right now, I can't see there being much chance of significant budget increases for much of a decade for defence. While the UK has made an art of "Fitted for but not With" for the RN, I think it's something we will end up going for, whatever the EPV ends up being it's most likely going to be the largest capital outlay for the DF in the next 10 years, we might have to accept something that will need extra funds post launch in order to meet "hot" missions.

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                            • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                              While true there are other factors to consider, while ancientmariner is right for example on the expect profile of the population that also brings issues with increased demands from both the Health and Education sectors, and the post 08 rules that the Eurozone has adopted also mean tight margins for some time in terms of budgets, given the fracture state of politics right now, I can't see there being much chance of significant budget increases for much of a decade for defence. While the UK has made an art of "Fitted for but not With" for the RN, I think it's something we will end up going for, whatever the EPV ends up being it's most likely going to be the largest capital outlay for the DF in the next 10 years, we might have to accept something that will need extra funds post launch in order to meet "hot" missions.
                              put it this way, in my local hospital there is a 3-4 week wait to go the fracture clinic

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                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                                put it this way, in my local hospital there is a 3-4 week wait to go the fracture clinic
                                How much of that is due to union work practices. Heard a surdgen conplain on the radio one day that he gets more eye operations done
                                on a Saturday morning in the Eye and Ear with a private team. then working with the public team over three days.
                                Last edited by sofa; 18 April 2016, 02:04.

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