EPV for naval service

[Herald]

Priorities will always be with the people in power though, and today those priorities are a cardiac unit for waterford, a CF clinic for Beaumont and 0ne million terrabit broadband for de peeple a' rooral R'scomman.
Next week Mattie Mcgrath will probably look for goodies, like a port for south tipp or something, so as not to be out done by the other independents .

For the military, it will always be a case of as little as possible. Although within the DF there is an increasing campaign of winning Hearts and minds, with the publicity over the Med mission, the recent recruits thing on RTE etc, we don't have the received memory of what happened in WWII that the UK or Norwegians have.

[ancientmariner]

Exactly right, spare money is always used as political ground bait. If we had a Defence Committee containing some expertise in the field that could evaluate total threats, obligations, and responses to sporadic crises of domestic and nearby origin then we could build a Defence System, including the Navy to meet most obligations. We are totally internalised in our politics with NO real interest in the edifice of the State. There is a degree of invisibility, lack of pride, and a concept that Defence Forces are part of the Social Services in time of want or weather stress. Right now , it is my opinion, that we are entering a politically fragile era that could go either way, mostly engendered by a growing number of parliamentary demagogues who claim to have " unfinished business"

[morpheus]

Exactly right, spare money is always used as political ground bait. If we had a Defence Committee containing some expertise in the field that could evaluate total threats, obligations, and responses to sporadic crises of domestic and nearby origin then we could build a Defence System, including the Navy to meet most obligations. We are totally internalised in our politics with NO real interest in the edifice of the State. There is a degree of invisibility, lack of pride, and a concept that Defence Forces are part of the Social Services in time of want or weather stress. Right now , it is my opinion, that we are entering a politically fragile era that could go either way, mostly engendered by a growing number of parliamentary demagogues who claim to have " unfinished business"

our problem in Ireland with defence funding, is as a result of this - defence is "supposedly" funded based on a number of factors, one of the biggest being our current and future threat levels, but lets look at the threat level:

Govt is told by intelligence services that the national and indeed international threat to ireland is low.
Govt then produces whitepaper on defence with this threat level in mind
Govt then looks at funding and decides defence needs small amounts as threat level is low
Defence remains seriously undervalued and underfunded to a point where its probably the lowest in europe.

Yet the REAL crux is this:
Our intelligence agencies are woeful, not to denigrate the work that they do, but we have such a limited intel capability.
The detectable threat - that which we CAN identify - will be that found amongst a very limited coverage of all threats that a thinly spread under resourced organisation can find.
Our agencies are stretched thin and can only scratch the surface or concentrate on one or two threats at a time.

So yes the govt is told that the threat to Ireland IS low, so they rub their hands together and opt out of capital acquisitions like an EPV for the navy, or cut it down so much that its just effectively a slightly longer OPV instead of a far more capable, intel gathering, semi war fighting, transport and heli capable, state asset.

the clever thing to do is to fund the intel services more, increase cyber security and detection, then show a truer risk assessment to cabinet, thus leading to increased defence expenditure, IF necessary.

That and parish pump politics!

[The Usual Suspect]

Is it totally naive to hope that as the national, and european, expectation of nescessary defence expenditure moves towards 2% that the first programmes to be funded would be effect multipliers for existing assets and resources?

ie A modest sea lift/air lift capability.

[danno]

IMHO pay restoration and deletion of the PRD/USC extractions is probably a more relevant issue for DF members than the acquisition of big money weapon systems. That said having a few more quid in the bank wont be of much use if you find yourself exposed to hostiles at the sharp end.

[ancientmariner]

Defence Spending

IMHO pay restoration and deletion of the PRD/USC extractions is probably a more relevant issue for DF members than the acquisition of big money weapon systems. That said having a few more quid in the bank wont be of much use if you find yourself exposed to hostiles at the sharp end.

As Eu Defence evolves it may be that all members will be expected to reach a 2% Defence spend. This would allow us to have a Capital expenditure chapter in our Defence Budgets rather than offsetting someones artillery or planes against a naval ship. Capital expenditures should NOT impinge day to day running of Defence Training and exercises. Our neighbours are continuosly training worldwide ,on most continents ,we need to expand that effort, ISTAR being an example of curtailment.

[ropebag]

As Eu Defence evolves it may be that all members will be expected to reach a 2% Defence spend.

i agree, for me the direction of travel is clear -that to continue to profit from the free trade and stability of the EU means being prepared to contribute to the effort that provides that stability. i'd bet very good money that within 20 years the EU will have an explicit common defence requirement, and a baseline spending requirement - quite simply the EU faces a crescent of instability and hostility from the Straights of Gibraltar to the North Cape of Norway, its not going to go away but infact get worse, and the power that previously held Europes hand is receding and begining to look in another direction. its not a choice, its simply a fact of our lives.

...Our neighbours are continuosly training worldwide ,on most continents ,we need to expand that effort, ISTAR being an example of curtailment.

a relatively simple solution has already presented itself, and one with little cost - Ireland has been invited to take part in big exercises in the UK for many years, Joint Warrior being the most obvious, NATO countries like the UK, France, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Canada, and PfP countrys like Sweden, have even offered to assist with airlift. the response, sadly, has been deafening silence or embarrasing hubris...

[Galloglass]

Any EU "requirment" for min spend on "defence" is more an indicator of the importance of the Arms industry to member countries than anything else. The "NATOization" of the EU is effectively US policy. The US is one of the principal causes of "colonial" wars globally.
Make 1.5 0r 2 % spend on Defence (fine with me) but concentrate on serving and fixing the UN..........NATO/ Russia/China etc are determined to keep the UN disfunctional or operate it as a codpiece for their various business "interests"..........Orwell was right.
Smiley

[The Usual Suspect]

Any EU "requirment" for min spend on "defence" is more an indicator of the importance of the Arms industry to member countries than anything else. The "NATOization" of the EU is effectively US policy. The US is one of the principal causes of "colonial" wars globally.
Make 1.5 0r 2 % spend on Defence (fine with me) but concentrate on serving and fixing the UN..........NATO/ Russia/China etc are determined to keep the UN disfunctional or operate it as a codpiece for their various business "interests"..........Orwell was right.
Smiley

*Sigh* Thanks for the Trotskyist analysis there Galloglass. Those who are not possessors and evangelists of the 'true' truth are either malovalent, malicious, or useful idiots for one of the former. Those of us who are not prepared to work directly towards the revolution should all sit on our hands until after and, in any case, all of these problems will spontaneously self correct following the overthrow of capitalism...


Meanwhile small nations may, however ineffectively, try to make the existing mechanisms work as well as they possibly can.

Our proud peacekeeping history places obligations, of leadership, on us as well as kudos. We can expect many future opportunities to save lives, broaden the path to peace, and support fledgling post-conflict civil administrations to be hard won. Just as they have been in the past. The idea that it is morally superior to stand on the sidelines, rather than to participate in peace building, because we want to hold our noses at the idea of equipping our military adequately to defend themselves while doing the jobs we ask of them is superbly frustrating! While also being illustrative of the fallacies of internalism endemic in Trotskyite thought.

An opportunity exists for Ireland to provide leadership, and perhaps more importantly build confidence, in UN peacekeeping institutions. There is no denying that the existing frameworks are profoundly malformed, but where opportunities arise to do good, we should at least consider seizing them.


Meanwhile... from the Irish Steel Mill Thread

An great opportunity to setup a Amphibious / Marine style Army Unit!.

With the EPV / MRV coming online in the coming years we could have a smaller but similar capabilty to the RNZN / RNZDF

Don't frighten the Army...

Could be a great opportunity indeed. Best probably to be very clear we're talking about Fusilier unit(s) ie amphibious units under Army Command/Control.

Would the Navy be interested in acquisition and re-amphibian-ising current Piranhas for the use of such units if the Army opts for Piranha V or Patria NG?

These would be ideal equipment for peacekeeping/peace enforcement/military rescue operations, similar to those recently conducted by Irish UNDOF Force Mobile Reserve in Syria. This capability would not only contribute directly to UN operations, but would also build badly needed confidence among other small nations that should peacekeepers find themselves imperiled, some sort of military rescue operation may be possible. Amphibious capability would largely be to dissuade a small non-compliant militia or regional warlord from the idea that seizing the local port would leave them invulnerable.

There would be enough equipment for 2 very potent Mechanised Company Groups that would fit handily, one at a time, on an adequately sized MRV.

Perhaps the 1st & 2nd Mechanised Fusilier (Military Rescue) Groups

Too far fetched?

[ancientmariner]

Nothing is unplannable or for that matter implementable. There are published reports on the Defence of Ireland 1940-1949 including Annual reports by the Chief of Staffs. Part of the on going contingency was difficulty in obtaining arms but every effort was made to manufacture adaptions to improve existing arms. The surprise for me was the existence of a Joint Irish/ British plan (Plan W) to carry out Defence of Ireland operations in the event of Nazi Invasion. The Irish side was D.Int. In the meantime we got 20 Hurricanes and small arms. So we can de-neutralise in emergencies, why not plan for a standard response to deter adventures by building our capabilities and NOT continually slide backwards on our Order of Battle. Dropping Brigades is purely a Budgetry response to decrease numbers without balancing consequences of relocations and effects of fractured Command and Control. Nothing can be planned unless we can get agreement on equipping to meet modern weapon standards. Likewise our ships need an upscaled self defence suite.

[Banner]

HI Folks

Apologies if this has been discussed already. Note I DID USE THE SEARCH function but either I'm a total idiot (a very real possibility) or it isnt working properly coz it brought back loads of results where this topic was not discussed at all.

Anyway in light of the Programme for Govt committing itself in writing to a 9 ship Navy I thought Id take a very quick look at what kind of off the shelf EPVs are on the market. (note I reckon the requirement to move a battlegroup ISTAR company in its entirety will be dropped - it is a requirement that will never be properly utilised and is too expensive in terms of its impact on other aspects of the ship.)

Anywho if you drop the requirement to move an entire company of 150 personnel and a shitload of vehicles and instead focus on the other tasks that will be given to a new Eithne replacement there is one ship that literally leaps out of a google search at you.

This thing literally ticks ALL of the boxes required!

60 Man crew
24 Kts max speed
helicopter capable
98 metres in lnegth
Armed with 76MM and Twin 20s
Ability to tack on different mission modules (including disaster relief humanitarian work and hospital ship.)
Ability to embark forces
ASW module capable
Ideal for....Border and EEZ surveillance
Counter piracy and smuggling
Counter drugs- and weapons trafficking
SAR
Fishery inspection
Disaster relief
Logistic support

I mean its practically written for us....

Any thoughts ? I dont know diddley about ships beam's or draughts or anything like that so it could be a total waste of time

Anyway link to brochure is here.. (bottom of the page)

http://products.damen.com/en/ranges/offshore-patrol-vessel/offshore-patrol-vessel-2600

[DeV]

A capable vessel, bigger than SB class but personally I'd say a Coy Gp capability is required but it could be a compromise.

[Galloglass]

[QUOTE=The Usual Suspect;440126]*Sigh* Thanks for the Trotskyist analysis there Galloglass. Those who are not possessors and evangelists of the 'true' truth are either malovalent, malicious, or useful idiots for one of the former. Those of us who are not prepared to work directly towards the revolution should all sit on our hands until after and, in any case, all of these problems will spontaneously self correct following the overthrow of capitalism...


Hi Usual......While I agree with a lot of your post I won't respond to your "editorializing" on Trotsky (God rest him) except to point out that IF we lived in a Capitallist society we would never have bailed out a single bank.

[DeV]

For those who sell the MRV/EPV with talk of a field hospital remember 2 things:
- there are a total of about 20 MOs in the whole DF
- the DF purchased a field hospital in probably the early 00s that was based on expandable 20' containers (it was from a Finnish company being with V can't find it online anymore). It was at least 20 containers.

[Jetjock]

Valmet?