EPV for naval service

[na grohmiti]

The project is proceeding.

The MRV is not being built to purely deliver equipment overseas hence the Multi Role part of the name.

Why can't we have both MRV and tactical airlift?.

Four ships are not tied up, P31 & P41 only are in operational reserve with P52 commencing half life refit.

P51 due to start trials this quarter back to operations.

We are an island nation which most people tend to forget.

We really need to get out of the notion that the 3 branches compete for equipment.
Its unhealthy and factually incorrect. The only reason it happens is because the powers that be like to keep that notion in the ether, to discourage demands for an actually properly equipped Defence forces.
We have a defence spend at 0.26% of GDP. If we went to the full 1% we could afford all the things, like everyone else in Europe does.

[Rhodes]

We really need to get out of the notion that the 3 branches compete for equipment.
Its unhealthy and factually incorrect. The only reason it happens is because the powers that be like to keep that notion in the ether, to discourage demands for an actually properly equipped Defence forces.
We have a defence spend at 0.26% of GDP. If we went to the full 1% we could afford all the things, like everyone else in Europe does.

The knock-on effect from all the systematic underfunding is projects planned two decades ago but stalled due to that underfunding become obsolete. What money that is being made available needs to be spent on what's needed for today's operational requirements and what's coming down the road, not on the missions 20 years ago that no longer exists.

[na grohmiti]

The knock-on effect from all the systematic underfunding is projects planned two decades ago but stalled due to that underfunding become obsolete. What money that is being made available needs to be spent on what's needed for today's operational requirements and what's coming down the road, not on the missions 20 years ago that no longer exists.

Have you Tomorrows Euro-millions numbers too?

[DeV]

The project is in planning this 20 years. It's proposed to be an XXL OPV with "freight carrying capacity" to support overseas missions. All OPV's are multi-role.
In an ideal world, there should be both a tactical airlift aircraft and an amphibious ship, but in the real world, funding will only be made available for just about one.
There are four ships tied up. A decision is going to be made on where to find the crew for P51 before the spring gand its likely to be from P42.

The was the EPV, now the MRV

“ Helicopter Patrol Vessels (HPV)
The LÉ Eithne, which is the current flagship and a HPV, will be replaced by a multi-role vessel (MRV). Whilst this ship will not carry a helicopter, it will be enabled for helicopter operations and will also have a freight carrying capacity. It is the Government’s intent that this new vessel will provide a flexible and adaptive capability for a wide range of maritime tasks, both at home and overseas.”

We really need to get out of the notion that the 3 branches compete for equipment.
Its unhealthy and factually incorrect. The only reason it happens is because the powers that be like to keep that notion in the ether, to discourage demands for an actually properly equipped Defence forces.
We have a defence spend at 0.26% of GDP. If we went to the full 1% we could afford all the things, like everyone else in Europe does.

Unfortunately it isn’t factually incorrect as you say so in your next sentence

The DF also have to compete for funding with every other part of the public service

[ancientmariner]

Obviously funding is key. Sweden is a neutral country and spends 1.1% of GDP on Defence and is currently planning to spend an extra 2 BN between 2022-2025. Norway spends 1.7% of their GDP. Our 0.26% on Defence has many draw downs before it buys Defence material. I agree that long reviews and developmental processes can build obsolescence into equipment . Our Budgets are also prone to last minute cuts with diversion to other contingencies and Departments.

[Graylion]

The Equipment Development Plan runs until 2024. There is unlikely to be any advancement within that time due to four ships being tied up.

With the eyes on a move to a certain landlocked overseas mission, its time to invest the money on whats badly needed, a tactical airlift aircraft. Any such aircraft would carry out more missions in a year than any supposed MRV ship in its lifetime.

Just buy into SAC. Cheaper and more capable. Our missions are so far away that a smaller tactical airlifter won't cut the mustard.

[Sparky42]

Just looking at some more bits on the Chilean order of the Vard design, if that was the end candidate (or an Irish variant of it), I wonder would it make sense to order it from the Chilean yard? I mean they are going to be building four of their variant so I'd imagine the yard might be able to do a quicker/cheaper build than if we went with a one off in some European yard?

[na grohmiti]

Just looking at some more bits on the Chilean order of the Vard design, if that was the end candidate (or an Irish variant of it), I wonder would it make sense to order it from the Chilean yard? I mean they are going to be building four of their variant so I'd imagine the yard might be able to do a quicker/cheaper build than if we went with a one off in some European yard?

Thing is, during build it's important that the NS can be on-site, to observe progress throughout the build (a lot more involved than that of course). Last year much of South America was closed to all Europeans, due to Covid 19. The only flights to/from were by state operated or chartered aircraft. All Visas for EU citizens were cancelled. Building in an EU located yard greatly reduces such risk.
At the end of the day though it all comes down to who posts the most attractive bid in a tender. When foreign exchange and costs to deliver come to play, it would be unlikely that we would get a better deal from a builder based in the Pacific.

[ancientmariner]

Thing is, during build it's important that the NS can be on-site, to observe progress throughout the build (a lot more involved than that of course). Last year much of South America was closed to all Europeans, due to Covid 19. The only flights to/from were by state operated or chartered aircraft. All Visas for EU citizens were cancelled. Building in an EU located yard greatly reduces such risk.
At the end of the day though it all comes down to who posts the most attractive bid in a tender. When foreign exchange and costs to deliver come to play, it would be unlikely that we would get a better deal from a builder based in the Pacific.

Agree NS oversight is important, especially indication of operator/user heights of all equipment aboard ship and in workspace and cabins. When building ,currency payments have to cover the hull and all the fittings and technical outfits, so a basket of currencies has to be allowed for. If building in the EU and using EU based fittings there is less hassle with EU provisions/waivers. It is common to appoint a technical oversight management team to stitch together all electronic, communications, command, navigation, and defence hardware. It includes EMC and power distribution. We had NEVESBU Holland for P31. It would be more difficult far away.

[DeV]

Agree NS oversight is important, especially indication of operator/user heights of all equipment aboard ship and in workspace and cabins. When building ,currency payments have to cover the hull and all the fittings and technical outfits, so a basket of currencies has to be allowed for. If building in the EU and using EU based fittings there is less hassle with EU provisions/waivers. It is common to appoint a technical oversight management team to stitch together all electronic, communications, command, navigation, and defence hardware. It includes EMC and power distribution. We had NEVESBU Holland for P31. It would be more difficult far away.

There was at least 1 NS officer resident during the builds of all the ships at Appledore

[na grohmiti]

There was at least 1 NS officer resident during the builds of all the ships at Appledore

Teams will also travel to the supplier of machinery and equipment used aboard ship for training and familiarisation.

[ancientmariner]

There was at least 1 NS officer resident during the builds of all the ships at Appledore

Once the building starts, the ship grows by the assembling of modular shop built units. Each drawing has to be approved by the owners representatives on site. The scope is so big that a team is necessary to keep up with the work pace and the quality of work being produced. It is a benefit to have Lloyds Engineer overseeing the compliance to rules and quality but the Service team needs Senior Seaman officers, Engineers, and Senior Branch NCO's all in a provided office. It is not unusual that every weld is tapped and that X-rays of welds are requested. Oversight at building is a crucial knowledge building exercise to know what goes on behind cladding , panelling and lay out of compartment drainage. A bit too much for one person.

[na grohmiti]

Pressure on team resources arising from critical procurement priorities has resulted in delays to project timelines. Despite these and, most recently, the impact of COVID 19, work has recommenced on progressing the Marine Advisor RFT, which is ready for publication. The plan, timelines and work breakdown structure need to be revisited to reflect revised timeframes and new Public Spending Code requirements.

From White Paper on Defence Implementation programme - February 2021

[ancientmariner]

From White Paper on Defence Implementation programme - February 2021

It is a pity that in ongoing Defence planning, and acquisition of needed structures and equipment, further steps are added in to the ever lengthening spiral staircase to proposed goals. Budgets are never quantified , and proposals are aspirational with limited chances of fruition.

[na grohmiti]

Its a huge paper exercise that has achieved nothing of substance, except the PC12, which happened in spite of the DoD.