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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    a vessel based on San Giusto but keep dimensions within 125m X 19.25 beam and draft as required to meet operational loads- say landing spots for two ab 212 sized helos, space for up to 150 troops and equipment on wheels, two winched landing craft, and a winched patrol craft ( large RHIB), hospital and Disaster relief capability, decent water making plants, Defence capability OTO 76mm, 2 x 30mm, other positions for 12.7mm, combat radars and decoy system, missile defence system, ability to assist OPV's to stay on task by resupply of dry stores and liquids other than water. Wing ballast tanks not more than 1.25 meters wide to allow ballasting ,de-ballasting at sea. Try for at least 800 tonnes of ballast water in 6 tanks. Crew about 60 all ranks.
    I did suggest that Class about two years ago but was knocked back......n
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      It is part of the NDP 2018-2027 but I’d say it will be the next major project that goes to tender
      Is that before the Casa Replacements or is that already handled?

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      • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
        I did suggest that Class about two years ago but was knocked back......n
        I suppose the only major issue would certainly be that such a ship is going to be for deployments not for EEZ operations.

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        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          Is that before the Casa Replacements or is that already handled?
          CASA replacement has gone to RFP stage and will subsequently go to RFT

          Brexit (as in increased demand) no doubt will influence it plus the fact that they are replacement (hopefully with additional capabilities) rather that completely new concepts for Irish Defence


          Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          I suppose the only major issue would certainly be that such a ship is going to be for deployments not for EEZ operations.
          And crew size

          Imho it has to be capable of both
          Last edited by DeV; 27 March 2019, 11:24.

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          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            I suppose the only major issue would certainly be that such a ship is going to be for deployments not for EEZ operations.
            And cost factors will remain. There won't be much change from Eur400m for a new one-off build San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes at a Fincantieri yard even with the redesign to scale it down or deleting 16 cell VLS.

            Nevertheless, the San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes due to their taskgroup C2 role and better onboard ballast management can happily conduct blue water SLOC patrols, unlike the Canterbury which is purely an amphibious sealift ship.

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            • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
              And cost factors will remain. There won't be much change from Eur400m for a new one-off build San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes at a Fincantieri yard even with the redesign to scale it down or deleting 16 cell VLS.

              Nevertheless, the San Giorgio/Kalaat Beni Abbes due to their taskgroup C2 role and better onboard ballast management can happily conduct blue water SLOC patrols, unlike the Canterbury which is purely an amphibious sealift ship.
              Another good point, though if we were going for something like the San Giorgio would it make more sense to look at the variant that the Qataris are buying, not for them fitting Aster 30's and the radar system for them, but because it looks like they will redesign it for NH90 helicopters which would give a greater range of options for future purchases for the AC?

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              • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                Another good point, though if we were going for something like the San Giorgio would it make more sense to look at the variant that the Qataris are buying, not for them fitting Aster 30's and the radar system for them, but because it looks like they will redesign it for NH90 helicopters which would give a greater range of options for future purchases for the AC?
                Once an agreed dimension has been decided and outline specifications for the ship have been put out to tender then builders proposals will come in to give a range of varietal choices. I would point out that the intention is a large air capable deck to facilitate operational requirements, and refueling of aircraft possibly BUT no AC involvement or provisions. Deck for Lilypad visits by any suitable aircraft.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Once an agreed dimension has been decided and outline specifications for the ship have been put out to tender then builders proposals will come in to give a range of varietal choices. I would point out that the intention is a large air capable deck to facilitate operational requirements, and refueling of aircraft possibly BUT no AC involvement or provisions. Deck for Lilypad visits by any suitable aircraft.
                  Self-harming foolishness.

                  Even if steel was cut tomorrow this vessel would still be in service in 2050. To deliberately inhibit what a ship could do for the next 30 years based on your predictions of what the AC will be capable of for the next 5 years is about as close to being as dumb as pork as it's possible for any creature with a functioning nervous system to be.

                  A vessel with a 30 year service life needs to be so adaptable as to be almost a blank canvas.

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                  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                    Self-harming foolishness.

                    Even if steel was cut tomorrow this vessel would still be in service in 2050. To deliberately inhibit what a ship could do for the next 30 years based on your predictions of what the AC will be capable of for the next 5 years is about as close to being as dumb as pork as it's possible for any creature with a functioning nervous system to be.

                    A vessel with a 30 year service life needs to be so adaptable as to be almost a blank canvas.
                    What a stupid and nasty way to make a point .
                    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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                    • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                      What a stupid and nasty way to make a point .
                      The point was made but so was mine based on past history. The last couple of decades of the operational life of P31 was to see her Helicopter designation deleted and the remaining Dauphins gracing the Chilean Navy. Shortly after completion of live helicopter trials, when CO was on leave ,a truck arrived from the Don to remove ships starting trolley and certain other tools. Fortunately the CO had popped in and after discussion the truck departed empty handed. Ships need to be run by sailors and all other interfaces and visits are either by invite or for operational tasks. A ship is not a tank or a truck and is also home to it's crew for a year or so.

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                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        The point was made but so was mine based on past history. The last couple of decades of the operational life of P31 was to see her Helicopter designation deleted and the remaining Dauphins gracing the Chilean Navy. Shortly after completion of live helicopter trials, when CO was on leave ,a truck arrived from the Don to remove ships starting trolley and certain other tools. Fortunately the CO had popped in and after discussion the truck departed empty handed. Ships need to be run by sailors and all other interfaces and visits are either by invite or for operational tasks. A ship is not a tank or a truck and is also home to it's crew for a year or so.
                        Probably the best post you've made on the site, Can't disagree with a single word.

                        I would go back to the point made around operations in the EEZ and would suggest that the size of the vessel would lead to greater self sufficiency and should be able to provide a sustained presence off shore for greater periods of time, the only weak link being the crewing arrangements, so you do need a bigger pool of people to operate a larger vessel, you especially need a greater number of specialized roles and this it would seem where we always run into trouble.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                        • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          Probably the best post you've made on the site, Can't disagree with a single word.

                          I would go back to the point made around operations in the EEZ and would suggest that the size of the vessel would lead to greater self sufficiency and should be able to provide a sustained presence off shore for greater periods of time, the only weak link being the crewing arrangements, so you do need a bigger pool of people to operate a larger vessel, you especially need a greater number of specialized roles and this it would seem where we always run into trouble.
                          Indeed endurance hangs on sustainability and the ability of crew to keep things running, especially in bad weather. With the higher levels of education, and knowledge of technical media being endemic in the young age groups, it is possible to train operators of specific equipment to maintain them and at least change parts that are broken. It is necessary to have higher quotas for electrical/electronic/engineering/armourer type ratings/officers. Ideally a singleton RRM on board should have a juniour understudy to provide maximum cover. An MRV with 3 deployable craft will need to be able to crew all three at the same time, with reliefs- possibly nine crew away with a relief contingent at the 4 hour mark. I would pitch her crew around the 70 + mark.

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                          • It is necessary to have higher quotas for electrical/electronic/engineering/armourer type ratings/officers.
                            I think we need to move away from our traditional style of deploying people around divisions and look at something along the UK RN style were branches are more holistic in their approach, where WEMS are function around of weapons systems and their supports and where boarding parties and boats crew are not drawn from a single division
                            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              I think we need to move away from our traditional style of deploying people around divisions and look at something along the UK RN style were branches are more holistic in their approach, where WEMS are function around of weapons systems and their supports and where boarding parties and boats crew are not drawn from a single division

                              Boarding parties are drawn from all divisions onboard.

                              Every NCO is trained in both Fishery and Naval Boarding.

                              Eithne with her slightly larger crew has a bigger selection of Boarding Officers/NCOs.

                              As it stands, all ships company are multi-role, beside their own job/division onboard they are trained in DCFF, boat launching, line handling, and all core ship or seamanship skills.

                              There is scope in the engineering dept alright for what you suggest above.

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                              • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post
                                Boarding parties are drawn from all divisions onboard.

                                Every NCO is trained in both Fishery and Naval Boarding.

                                Eithne with her slightly larger crew has a bigger selection of Boarding Officers/NCOs.

                                As it stands, all ships company are multi-role, beside their own job/division onboard they are trained in DCFF, boat launching, line handling, and all core ship or seamanship skills.

                                There is scope in the engineering dept alright for what you suggest above.
                                I agree , and the same with CRAA weapons. Key is to have the crew big enough to meet a 48 hour stand to, in emergency ,with all capabilities front loaded.

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