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  • I like it.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
      I like it.
      snip
      She's slightly too wide for the graving dock.

      Comment


      • The Norwegian LSV is 26m, the Dutch HNLMS Karel Doorman is 30.4m wide.
        If we ever did get a Tarlac we would find a solution to berth it.

        Comment


        • Can she fit in the basin?
          We'll just have to dock it elsewhere.
          Interesting concept though. I'm sure if necessary, the dimensions could be tweaked for our purposes.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • misses the logistic aspect of an AOR - which is much more than a tanker BTW. You are thinking of an AO. And she could be drydocked in Belfast?

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            • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
              misses the logistic aspect of an AOR - which is much more than a tanker BTW.
              What is it?

              BMT aren't advertising it as such

              Comment


              • Auxiliary
                Oiler
                Replenishment

                An AOR is a tanker with some limited replacement capability. It is designed as a tanker with fuel tanks and a double hull. Their prime purpose is the refueling and resupply of ships at sea.
                Even the new HNoMS Maud is a AOR even if sometimes it is referred to as a LSV.
                http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-p...pport-vessels/
                The cost, well it is around $157m, so around the same as a Holland class large OPV.

                But why do we see AOR's in roles such as that in the Med or off Somila, simple: it is the lack of hulls to be everywhere. Just as boots on the ground is the land cry for patrolling so it is hulls in the water for maritime patrol. As more and more roles have been packen into single hulls so the price has gone up while the numbers have fallen.
                If money was no issue we would love to have a few JSS Karel Doorman vessels, cimbines an AOR and LPD all in one hull, but it is 27800t and costs $414m. To put that into perspective for the same money you can get
                2 Tarlac class LPD
                2 Lurssen 85m OPV-H and
                6 MH60S helicopters to park on their outside vehicle Decks. Now I know where I would put my money as the latter is a much bigger force enhancement

                So why is a LPD better suited to our needs than an AOR/LSV. What do we want, we want something to transport the army, so a vessel that can take MOWAG's, LTV's and trucks along with a number of containers. We want some minimal hospital capability, we needed to be able to put all this ashore independent of harbour facilities as either through military action or natural disaster they may not be available. Then there is the rescue at sea Action such as the one we perform today. Getting someone off a rubber depth trap is easier onto the ramp of an LCM that a RHIB. And once onboard the mothership with a LPD there is plenty of below deck space while storing people in fuel tanks is not really an option.
                Last edited by EUFighter; 8 July 2017, 12:26.

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                • To be fair, the med is todays tasking, who knows what the future will bring, but the fact remains:
                  The DoD frequently engages the service of a civvy shipping company to bring military vehicles and equipment overseas as freight. All have to be de-armed during transport, and re-armed on arrival. This makes little sense.
                  One of the ATCA tasks is island support. None of the naval vessels is currently capable of evacuating one of the islands if necessary.
                  The DoD, and the NS has for many years aspired to have a vessel capable of being used as a floating hospital. The obvious short term solution here is by placing the Already in use Medical TEUs aboard a suitable ships deck, and sending it where it may be needed.
                  As for AOR, any vessel is capable of refuelling another on a small scale via modular equipment if required. Just not at sea. An AOR is mostly oil tanker, and we don't have enough work for a dedicated type.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    Auxiliary
                    Oiler
                    Replenishment

                    An AOR is a tanker with some limited replacement capability. It is designed as a tanker with fuel tanks and a double hull. There prime purpose is the refueling and resupply of ships at sea.
                    Even the new HNoMS Maud is a AOR even if sometimes it is referred to as a LSV.
                    http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-p...pport-vessels/
                    The cost, well it is around $157m, so around the same as a Holland class large OPV.

                    But why do we see AOR's in roles such as that in the Med or off Somila, simple: it is the lack of hulls to be everywhere. Just as boots on the ground is the land cry for patrolling so it is hulls in the water for maritime patrol. As more and more roles have been packen into single hulls so the price has gone up while the numbers have fallen.
                    If money was no issue we would love to have a few JSS Karel Doorman vessels, cimbines an AOR and LPD all in one hull, but it is 27800t and costs $414m. To put that into perspective for the same money you can get
                    2 Tarlac class LPD
                    2 Lurssen 85m OPV-H and
                    6 MH60S helicopters to park on their outside vehicle Decks. Now I know where I would put my money as the latter is a much bigger force enhancement

                    So why is a LPD better suited to our needs than an AOR/LSV. What do we want, we want something to transport the army, so a vessel that can take MOWAG's, LTV's and trucks along with a number of containers. We want some minimal hospital capability, we needed to be able to put all this ashore independent of harbour facilities as either through military action or natural disaster they may not be available. Then there is the rescue at sea Action such as the one we perform today. Getting someone of a rubber depth trap is easier onto the ramp of an LCM that a RHIB. And once onboard the mothership with a LPD there is plenty of below deck space while storing people in fuel tanks is not really an option.
                    Agreed, there is zero requirement for a AOR (or similar). There are also a good few around. Does the current fleet have the capability to be RAS'ed?

                    There is an ongoing requirement for DF equipment & vehicles to be transported overseas.

                    Realistically, to be useful, for ops where harbour facilities are lacking you need LCUs and a well dock (otherwise your constrained by sea state trying to load a LCU via crane). It will need RHIBs anyway, so put at least a pln on the ground simulatiously on board. We could get a few LCVPs and but them on board (they can carry roughly a Nissan with trailer). But for each one your sacrificing at least at least 1 TEU deck space.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                      The DoD frequently engages the service of a civvy shipping company to bring military vehicles and equipment overseas as freight. All have to be de-armed during transport, and re-armed on arrival. This makes little sense.
                      do they or is that just to protect them from sea salt etc?
                      I think I remember something about them carry hazards but can't remember what class (it may not have been Class 1)

                      One of the ATCA tasks is island support. None of the naval vessels is currently capable of evacuating one of the islands if necessary.
                      If it came to it they could do a Pontus. But if it came to it, it would probably be weather related. But you have a point.

                      The DoD, and the NS has for many years aspired to have a vessel capable of being used as a floating hospital. The obvious short term solution here is by placing the Already in use Medical TEUs aboard a suitable ships deck, and sending it where it may be needed.
                      again you aren't wrong but manning will be an issue.


                      As for AOR, any vessel is capable of refuelling another on a small scale via modular equipment if required. Just not at sea. An AOR is mostly oil tanker, and we don't have enough work for a dedicated type.
                      +1

                      Comment


                      • Thanks Dev. Re the medical bit, we don't need to have our own medics operating it.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                          Can she fit in the basin?
                          We'll just have to dock it elsewhere.
                          Interesting concept though. I'm sure if necessary, the dimensions could be tweaked for our purposes.
                          I think as the ships get bigger we need to look at opening out the Basin to be able to accommodate larger vessels, shouldn't be constricted by our limited facilities.

                          After the New Zealand experience I'd be interested in the freeboard between the RHib Stations and the waterline and should these be closed off?
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • The NZ experience found the rib station aft in a location that while above the waterline, was frequently wet. The ship above seems to have the RIB station at main deck level. The Flight deck is a deck above the main deck.

                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • Whats option 'b'?
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                                After the New Zealand experience I'd be interested in the freeboard between the RHib Stations and the waterline and should these be closed off?
                                I would have to agree there, if there is one item on the Tarlac that needs to change it is the RIB station. It needs s door system possibly a folding one like on the New German F125 class.

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