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  • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Did anyone ever buy that variant of the MEKO?
    Nope. It was put forth as a contender for the RNZN requirement, but they went with a ferry painted grey instead of a frigate with less weaponry but more useable deck space.
    No longer being offerred, unsurprisingly, ten years on.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • So what's the likely off the shelf options for the 200 million figure?

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      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        So what's the likely off the shelf options for the 200 million figure?
        That's just it. It depends what the requirements are. I imagine the old EPV specs are now history, given they have gone back to the MRV title on official policy documentation.
        We'll have to wait and see.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          So what's the likely off the shelf options for the 200 million figure?
          A ball of shite.

          the Naval service are now looking at a concept that is ten years old that after Liberia the Army never revisited and was proven to cheaper to deploy peeps and jeeps by commercial means... the original EPV ? MRV were on the wish list of a defence force that never came about because of a recession. RThe three for one policy has never been given credibilty even though the rest of the world buys into it, to have one operational and effective you need three.

          Son in effect we are looking at an unproven concept within the Naval service to fcuk about with and drink money at the expense of better ships for roles that are being carried out as opposed to pipe dreams.

          Being floated out as an Eithne replacement, and lets all remember how that concept ended up and how it ended up as just an OPV with extra deck space!

          It has taken us 15 years to evolve the Roisin Class into useful vessels, they had their flaws that took time to iron out, this will be a 200 million euro sponge that will eat money and resources and probably won't see service within the next ten years.

          Just buy a couple of low end Frigates for the same money and get over this blue/ green pipe dream
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • Nothing wrong with Roisin's design as far as I'm aware, the seas the NS are going into are bigger.

            Eithne's design (like the Deirdre and Emer classes) was based on a trawler wasn't it. Ever vessel since has been based on a commercial/naval PV design. You'd imagine that the MRV will be based on MOTS/COTS design

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            • If we are to move away from the blue/green. The NS would be possibly better going for an ETV type vessel.

              The Rolls Royce UT527CD has a heli deck, OPV speeds, >100t bollard tow, could probably take a few TEUs

              The UT512CD is similar but doesn't have the heli deck and could probably take a good few TEUs.

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              • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                If we are to move away from the blue/green. The NS would be possibly better going for an ETV type vessel.

                The Rolls Royce UT527CD has a heli deck, OPV speeds, >100t bollard tow, could probably take a few TEUs

                The UT512CD is similar but doesn't have the heli deck and could probably take a good few TEUs.
                For the NS it may be better, for Ireland operating in any international operation? What benefit/use would it have?

                I think fundamentally the question should be "Are we looking for something that can have value for serious out of EEZ operations or not?"

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                • othing wrong with Roisin's design as far as I'm aware
                  Huge fuel consumption, vibration issues....As I said it took until the latest of the P60s to iron out the P50s faults


                  Eithne's design (like the Deirdre and Emer classes) was based on a trawler wasn't it
                  Nope!
                  Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                  • I'm not saying it is my preferred option. But who knows??

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                    • The philosophy of a blue/green vessel makes little sense to me in Ireland's current context.
                      It would be a vessel that only has a green role in a once-in-a-blue-moon UN/PfP deployment. A vessel which requires escorts that Ireland do not possess and, as a "neutral", do not train alongside.
                      As a capability for the Irish Defence Forces, surely it should only be acquired after we have the frigates or at least corvettes to escort it. As a plug-in for multinational efforts, surely we should join a damned alliance before spending money on something that only works as part of such.
                      Get a bloody frigate and leave the Absalom-lite until we have a defence spend that justifies it.
                      But they won't, will they? They'll get a floating Dauphin that provides about much benefit to the navy for about as long. Cynical me.

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                      • i think that the view that any future vessel should fit in with the current force structure/operations is both self-defeating and willfully ignoring the reality of DF operations since 1945.

                        the DF has operated on a model of 'slotting-in' since the first day it stepped off the Island - the ISTAR coy slots into the EUBG, the DF has to trust its partners to provide the Logs and the force protection yet no one bats an eyelid at that, the same with UNFIL and all the rest. its not even something confined to Ireland: in Iraq and Afghanistan sub-units from one country would slot into forces from another, often providing niche capabilities while the 'host' would provide everything that sub-unit needed - mobility, logs spt, protection.

                        when Swedish Gripens were operating over Libya they flew from an Italian airfield, with UK/French/US/NATO AWACS, targetting and tanking, with UK and US logistics support. when an RAF RC-135 flies over Syria - or the Horn of Africa, or along the Libyan coast, or along the Polish-Belarus border - all very much EU areas of interest, it needs tanker support from the USAF, or French, or Australian. none of this makes Swedish Gripens, or Lithuanian Infantry, or RAF SIGINT, or the Irish ISTAR Coy, or Danish Leopard tanks, or an Irish AOR in the Med or Caribbean any less useful, or employable, or effective in the pursuit of national, multi-national or regional security objectives.

                        everyone put ingrediants into the pie, and everyone gets a slice of pie back.

                        the Frigate idea is, frankly, utter hoop. unless you're looking at spending €350-400m on it, and funding its 150+ crew, and buying a helicopter for it, and committing yourself to killing people with it, then you're buying rubber dogshit - it also requires some spectacular mental gymnastics to argue against an AOR/Landing Support Ship on the basis that it doesn't fit with Irish doctrine or current force structure, and then propose a Frigate that fits even less into Irish doctrine, budget, politics and force structure and that will, of course, need to be refuelled by someone elses AOR unless you want it to get to Malta, buy some post cards and turn around and go home...

                        an AOR or Landing Support ship could spend six months a year in the Med, whether hoovering up migrants or supporting OP Sophia, it could provide Sealift and Logs Spt to the EUBG - and Ireland could, if it wished, make that support its contribution - it could do drugs interdiction and humanitarian relief in the Caribbean and half a hundred other things that provide support to Irish/European security, are cheaper and politically easier than pointy, crunchy military operations, and that benefit Ireland diplomatically.

                        a Frigate on the other hand - well, no Irish government is going to send it to brass up the Libyan coast, or depth charge 'lost' Russian subs in the Baltic, but i suppose it could count fish like a bastard...

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                        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          i think that the view that any future vessel should fit in with the current force structure/operations is both self-defeating and willfully ignoring the reality of DF operations since 1945.

                          the DF has operated on a model of 'slotting-in' since the first day it stepped off the Island - the ISTAR coy slots into the EUBG, the DF has to trust its partners to provide the Logs and the force protection yet no one bats an eyelid at that, the same with UNFIL and all the rest. its not even something confined to Ireland: in Iraq and Afghanistan sub-units from one country would slot into forces from another, often providing niche capabilities while the 'host' would provide everything that sub-unit needed - mobility, logs spt, protection.

                          when Swedish Gripens were operating over Libya they flew from an Italian airfield, with UK/French/US/NATO AWACS, targetting and tanking, with UK and US logistics support. when an RAF RC-135 flies over Syria - or the Horn of Africa, or along the Libyan coast, or along the Polish-Belarus border - all very much EU areas of interest, it needs tanker support from the USAF, or French, or Australian. none of this makes Swedish Gripens, or Lithuanian Infantry, or RAF SIGINT, or the Irish ISTAR Coy, or Danish Leopard tanks, or an Irish AOR in the Med or Caribbean any less useful, or employable, or effective in the pursuit of national, multi-national or regional security objectives.

                          everyone put ingrediants into the pie, and everyone gets a slice of pie back.

                          the Frigate idea is, frankly, utter hoop. unless you're looking at spending €350-400m on it, and funding its 150+ crew, and buying a helicopter for it, and committing yourself to killing people with it, then you're buying rubber dogshit - it also requires some spectacular mental gymnastics to argue against an AOR/Landing Support Ship on the basis that it doesn't fit with Irish doctrine or current force structure, and then propose a Frigate that fits even less into Irish doctrine, budget, politics and force structure and that will, of course, need to be refuelled by someone elses AOR unless you want it to get to Malta, buy some post cards and turn around and go home...

                          an AOR or Landing Support ship could spend six months a year in the Med, whether hoovering up migrants or supporting OP Sophia, it could provide Sealift and Logs Spt to the EUBG - and Ireland could, if it wished, make that support its contribution - it could do drugs interdiction and humanitarian relief in the Caribbean and half a hundred other things that provide support to Irish/European security, are cheaper and politically easier than pointy, crunchy military operations, and that benefit Ireland diplomatically.

                          a Frigate on the other hand - well, no Irish government is going to send it to brass up the Libyan coast, or depth charge 'lost' Russian subs in the Baltic, but i suppose it could count fish like a bastard...
                          In the first case, you are talking about slotting in elements that have a role in national defence and are provided to fit into a similar role as part of a whole.
                          For an AOR or landing support ship, you're talking about a vessel that has no purpose except for deployments with foreign forces. Nice, but I think that no vessel should be paid for, manned and run by the Irish navy if it cannot actually support the Irish navy's primary role.
                          Yes, I admit a frigate is pie-in-the sky - but it would have an actual role in defence of the state and could patrol our waters, whereas an AOR or landing support ship might as well spend its career tied up at dock in the Netherlands until an Irish crew needed to be flown out to use it. We'd be better off paying for someone else to have one and avoid having to crew it at all.
                          Another thought. If it's going to be a miniature car ferry, fine - but why bother? If anything more than a car ferry it surely also has be capable of flight operations.
                          Doesn't this mean more than just having a helipad? How does the crew learn to manage flight ops if there is no routine use of a helicopter when not deployed with an EU battle group or other multinational exercise? I can't help feeling that we are trying to find something that either Ireland gets nothing but diplomatic brownie points for, or is a scaled-down cheapie fudge that can do nothing at all well enough to be worth the bother.

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                          • Hopefully the Navy will know. Conjecturing and expertising by many is a waste of time. In modern times green/blue interface has blue roots with Marine elements living in a salty environment prepared to board aggressively or assault and conduct operations to shore from Naval units. Our MRV must be able to provide support to ongoing natural disasters, military operations in police actions, naval support to own and other ships, and provide a platform for any local exigencies in AOP involving vertrep, fuelling etc. The main specification is that such a ship should not be limited in Global Voyaging and all her assets should be readily deployable without endangering the ship or it's crew elements. I would start at 8/ 10,000Tonnes Full Load and 130metres in length at 20 knots or whatever is a comfortable Fleet speed with the P50/60's.

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                            • Sounds like a Canterbury.

                              Spending climate wise, the biggest problem is that the next four years are the worst possible time to have to replace the Eithne.
                              Last edited by expat01; 13 October 2017, 11:26.

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                              • The MRV give the NS more flexibility to defend, protect, support.

                                What could said MRV do?
                                - rotate equipment to UNIFIL and UNDOF
                                - bring equipment to/from EUBG (and maybe PfP and EU exercises, etc)
                                - bring equipment to new missions
                                - bring other peoples equipment to missions
                                - conduct humanitarian relief type ops (e.g. The Med, the Carribean, etc) possibly in support of Irish Aid (who do excellent work and AFAIK are also getting a funding increase)
                                - conduct trade missions in support of Enterprise Ireland etc (more important with regard to BREXIT)

                                The MRV is a real key driver into moving the NS await from EEZ duties

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