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  • Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
    Difficult to work in three dimensions only Medsailor........There's never enough time (smiley)
    I scent a Trekkie...

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    • It's an old hobby horse of mine, but I still ride it. A lot of Ireland's defence ideas have been based on having no money, no resources, not taking threats seriously and, as a result, not taking ourselves seriously. The next two governments are going to have to start thinking of defence in the light of the needs and responsibilities of a quite wealthy nation with a population of 5 million, with significant and growing links through immigrants to some quite interesting areas of the globe. Unlike NZ however, we have the option of designing or defence needs on the basis of fitting in with some very nearby.. Partners, if not allies.

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      • Originally posted by expat01 View Post
        It's an old hobby horse of mine, but I still ride it. A lot of Ireland's defence ideas have been based on having no money, no resources, not taking threats seriously and, as a result, not taking ourselves seriously. The next two governments are going to have to start thinking of defence in the light of the needs and responsibilities of a quite wealthy nation with a population of 5 million, with significant and growing links through immigrants to some quite interesting areas of the globe. Unlike NZ however, we have the option of designing or defence needs on the basis of fitting in with some very nearby.. Partners, if not allies.
        Your Last sentence describes the underlying reasons for our stunted Naval development. The Big guys will do it as we are sitting under the European Defence umberella. That of course is shrinking; we already have to do our own Air/Sea rescue and must now look to a worthwhile Defence capability in all THREE dimensions.

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        • Relying on the big guys is fair enough if it is on the basis of sharing and relative ability; say we focus on mine clearing and ASW, for example, keeping shipping lanes clear for all while relying on the UK for large surface warfare, with agreements in place for deployment and training. But you're right, what we have actually done is nothing, assuming they will just pitch up if we were in trouble.

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Your Last sentence describes the underlying reasons for our stunted Naval development. The Big guys will do it as we are sitting under the European Defence umberella. That of course is shrinking; we already have to do our own Air/Sea rescue and must now look to a worthwhile Defence capability in all THREE dimensions.
            A situation that is all too familiar to me. The question we are facing is how far can we take capabilities without these becoming more of a showpiece than a real capability. One constraint is that, at least to a certain degree, simple size brings with it capability or at least the ability to deliver capabilities 24/7. In addition, doing things on a small scale generally makes for higher unit costs. There is a critical mass that is required to deliver the full set of capabilities and I am pretty sure that it is significantly higher than, for instance, the size of the RNZN. The latter has an impressive range of capabilities on paper but with these concentrated in 2 (FFGs) or sometimes even 1 (Canterbury) hull, then the reality is that they form, at best capabilities that may not be available when needed due to the myriad of issues that affect a vessel throughout its service life. That leads to a situation where difficult choices inevitably have to be made to concentrate resources on becoming competent to face the most likely threats all the time rather than the most dangerous some of the time.
            Last edited by Medsailor; 22 January 2016, 13:32.

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            • [QUOTE=expat01;436750]....." say we focus on mine clearing and ASW, for example, keeping shipping lanes clear for all while relying on the UK for large surface warfare"

              That is probably WHY the mine clearing requirment was inserted by the govt. So that Ireland can play with NATO and be able to avail of it's support when we decide to engage another country in large surface warfare......There are more "useful" improvments that the NS could do with right now than minesweepers and ASW (though it would be nice to be able to track all the subs skulking around our coast).

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              • [QUOTE=Galloglass;436754]
                Originally posted by expat01 View Post
                ....." say we focus on mine clearing and ASW, for example, keeping shipping lanes clear for all while relying on the UK for large surface warfare"

                That is probably WHY the mine clearing requirment was inserted by the govt. So that Ireland can play with NATO and be able to avail of it's support when we decide to engage another country in large surface warfare......There are more "useful" improvments that the NS could do with right now than minesweepers and ASW (though it would be nice to be able to track all the subs skulking around our coast).

                The only way we can track the subs is if we set up our own SOSUS network..
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                • SOSUS......Better than chasing them all over the place. We could broadcast all "incursions" to all and sundry which might discourage them. The equipment could be serviced by our new EPV and would provide continuous monitoring of ALL our waters.

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                  • Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
                    SOSUS......Better than chasing them all over the place. We could broadcast all "incursions" to all and sundry which might discourage them. The equipment could be serviced by our new EPV and would provide continuous monitoring of ALL our waters.
                    More or less, what we done in the Emergency.[the rest of the world called a World War].
                    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
                    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
                    Illegitimi non carborundum

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                    • minewarfare would be an important contribution to European defence, with Vladimir Putin in charge of Russia the Baltic States and Poland, thousands of whose citizens live in our country, feel threatened by a resurgent Russia.

                      The state has to look at supporting these democracies against Russian aggression. More important, submairnes laid mines pose the only relalistic naval threat to the irish state, and PWC back in 1994 recomended that the capability to Lay and sweep naval mines be a core component of the naval service.

                      I am aware that there is a minority of those who support Mr Putin, after all Like Gerry Adams he has no hesitation in ordering his political opponests being murdered, but in my opinion most right thinking people in this country would support assisting the Baltic states if threaten by a resurgent Russia, and would support or be indifferent to the development of capabilities to support peace and security in Europe

                      As for the EPV, comparisons with new zealand are misleading, its in a different geographic position, New Zealands has different requirements when it comes to strategic lift.

                      My five cents is that the EPV won't be a bespoke design, that the state will go with a European design like the italian PPA , thus cutting costs on procurement and lifecycle costs.
                      Last edited by paul g; 22 January 2016, 15:18.

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                      • Hopefully you're right about the EPV Paul......Regarding a "Resurgent Russia" v "Expanding NATO" (two sides of same coin).

                        "most right thinking people in this country would support assisting the Baltic states if threaten by a resurgent Russia ".......If that's your definition of "right thinking" fair enough.
                        What is your definition of "assisting"?

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                        • Originally posted by paul g View Post
                          My five cents is that the EPV won't be a bespoke design, that the state will go with a European design like the italian PPA , thus cutting costs on procurement and lifecycle costs.
                          It would be good if there was something out there that met the requirements

                          The PPA is more frigate with spare capacity than a blue/green ship (can only carry 12 TEUs)

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                          • Originally posted by Galloglass View Post
                            Hopefully you're right about the EPV Paul......Regarding a "Resurgent Russia" v "Expanding NATO" (two sides of same coin).

                            "most right thinking people in this country would support assisting the Baltic states if threaten by a resurgent Russia ".......If that's your definition of "right thinking" fair enough.
                            What is your definition of "assisting"?
                            Oh yesus.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Given we had an anti submarine capability for 20 years at the height of the cold war and never had to use it once when there were far more submarines on the move..why do we need to re visit the ability..when we are never going to use it!
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • Slowly slowly catchy monkey. It will take the next twenty years to turn our coastguard into a navy, but inertia will get us there. Economy and population have a dynamic all of their own, we will find.

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