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  1. #1351
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    EPV'S

    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Ships are usually costed from a basket of currencies, to include costs of major ranges of Equipment/ Outfit. It depends on where the bits and pieces are bought from. Typical basket might include Sterling, Euro, Yen, Usd, Sw Kronor, Renminbi/Yuan, Danish Kr. etc.
    Clauses will include exchange rates and what happens if the shipyard goes bust.
    We are about to enter a new phase in ship building and we need to think about how we should fit in as a member of the EU with a view to being a meaningful member of a Pan-European Defence Agency or whatever. Our ships need more Defence systems and a seamless capability of Data interchange with other European navies. We are spending E320m on our 4 largest vessels giving us availability worldwide but we are short on what we can bring to the Table and take from that Table when we are there. we must present a realistic case for planned increase in our firepower.

  2. #1352
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    We are about to enter a new phase in ship building and we need to think about how we should fit in as a member of the EU with a view to being a meaningful member of a Pan-European Defence Agency or whatever. Our ships need more Defence systems and a seamless capability of Data interchange with other European navies. We are spending E320m on our 4 largest vessels giving us availability worldwide but we are short on what we can bring to the Table and take from that Table when we are there. we must present a realistic case for planned increase in our firepower.
    I agree with upgrading our Naval Service Ancient,,,,,,
    I have no interest whatsoever in "Pan-European Defence" or "The Resource Wars of the 21st. Century" as proposed by former "EU Presidente Jaques Delors"

  3. #1353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galloglass View Post
    I agree with upgrading our Naval Service Ancient,,,,,,
    I have no interest whatsoever in "Pan-European Defence" or "The Resource Wars of the 21st. Century" as proposed by former "EU Presidente Jaques Delors"

    Only problem is that Delors never said that, it was a lie made up by extreme republicans at the time Of the 1992 referendum. republican opponents to the EU invested post truth long before trump.

  4. #1354
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    Only problem is that Delors never said that, it was a lie made up by extreme republicans at the time Of the 1992 referendum. republican opponents to the EU invested post truth long before trump.
    Now become europhiles since brexit

  5. #1355
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    EXPANSION/ENHANCEMENT of Naval Service.

    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Now become europhiles since brexit
    It's really a matter of geography and the current hot brinkmanship of the Bear and the Eagle. Setting an unwise RED Line could precipitate the Mediterranean/Middle East/ Western Europe into a conflict zone. Our ships could be classified as targets and must at least have a fighting chance. All sea lanes to Europe pass through Irish controlled waters. The old belief that the Brits will do it is a considerably diluted factor and must not be hoped for or planned for at this time.

  6. #1356
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    Even without a European defence involvement, we are now sending vessels out of territorial waters into potential threat land.w need more then fishery patrol capability on those vessels for the safety of our sailors
    If there ever is a threat to the integrity of our territorial waters, then we will need allies. Of course, this being Ireland, we won't look for those allies until we have to go cap in hand at five minutes after the last minute.
    We'd better have something to bring to the table then, too.

  7. #1357
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    Quote Originally Posted by expat01 View Post
    Even without a European defence involvement, we are now sending vessels out of territorial waters into potential threat land.w need more then fishery patrol capability on those vessels for the safety of our sailors
    If there ever is a threat to the integrity of our territorial waters, then we will need allies. Of course, this being Ireland, we won't look for those allies until we have to go cap in hand at five minutes after the last minute.
    We'd better have something to bring to the table then, too.
    To be fair, your average fishery protection vessel is not equipped with an OTO melara 76mm, two 20mm automatic cannon and 6 other assorted heavy and general purpose machine guns. Our secondaries are usually the primary armament on a fisheries protection vessel, if it is indeed even armed at all.
    Our vessels are more similar to armed Coast Guard vessels. They are appropriately armed for the risk. Getting that far though was quite a battle, some in Haulbowline would be happier if the ships were fitted with smaller, less maintenance hungry weapons. Thankfully common sense prevails.
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  8. #1358
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    I'm not even a talented amateur when it comes to things naval, but the armament strikes me as overkill for fisheries and inconsequential in terms of naval warfare or defence.

  9. #1359
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    I'm not even a talented amateur when it comes to things naval, but the armament strikes me as overkill for fisheries and inconsequential in terms of naval warfare or defence.
    No missiles, no anti-missile, no anti-air and no anti-sub.

  10. #1360
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    It's a gunboat for the like of intercepting traitors who import weapons, drugs etc, also does Fisheries protection

  11. #1361
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    EPV

    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    It's a gunboat for the like of intercepting traitors who import weapons, drugs etc, also does Fisheries protection
    .

    We have riches in that we have six ships capable of worldwide deployment. However we are not in any operational Alliance in an ongoing basis. We are not outfitted to deal with aggression in a Naval sense. These or future ships need additional weapons such as 30mm guns and/or a CIWS, Naval Strike missiles, Ship launched guided torpedoes, and all the relevant tracking and control systems. we must enhance our PV's.

  12. #1362
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    .

    We have riches in that we have six ships capable of worldwide deployment. However we are not in any operational Alliance in an ongoing basis. We are not outfitted to deal with aggression in a Naval sense. These or future ships need additional weapons such as 30mm guns and/or a CIWS, Naval Strike missiles, Ship launched guided torpedoes, and all the relevant tracking and control systems. we must enhance our PV's.
    I would be highly doubtful that any of our hulls could take such upgrades of hardware/support systems and the additional manpower. Trying to make OPV's into Corvette's/Light Frigates isn't going to work, if there's political will for combat deployments buy a Warship, rather than trying to upgrade the OPV's.

  13. #1363
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    Frigates should do frigate jobs. OPVs should do OPV jobs. Frigates could, and have done OPV jobs, badly, but OPVs should not do Frigate jobs.
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  14. #1364
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    Absolutely, but if you are going to send an OPV into an area where there has been attacks on shipping you must ensure it has the wherewithal to detect and counter threats. Leaving aside frigate type offensive weaponry, there is huge scope to increase the defensive capabilities of the current fleet.

  15. #1365
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    Would it be possible to put a team with RBS70 and Javelin on board in the Med' at least.

    Remember the Australian navy strapping on RBS70s to there ships during the 1st Gulf war
    Last edited by sofa; 22nd December 2016 at 17:03.

  16. #1366
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Would it be possible to put a team with RBS70 and Javelin on board in the Med' at least.

    Remember the Australian navy strapping on RBS70s to there ships during the 1st Gulf war
    Would this not be a waste without the necessary air defence radar to detect the threat that the RBS70 is suppose to deal with?

  17. #1367
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    Quote Originally Posted by ias View Post
    Would this not be a waste without the necessary air defence radar to detect the threat that the RBS70 is suppose to deal with?
    Yep.

    I'm a broken record on this: Mil std datalinks, air search radar and countermeasures are baseline for safety. Doesn't make it a frigate or corvette.

  18. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by ias View Post
    Would this not be a waste without the necessary air defence radar to detect the threat that the RBS70 is suppose to deal with?
    Eithne had/has one. P60 class does not have them but they can be retrofitted if necessary.
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  19. #1369
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmití View Post
    Eithne had/has one. P60 class does not have them but they can be retrofitted if necessary.
    Given the effective range of the RBS70, cueing with a staring IR array is probably more effective than with a radar. More difficult is ensuring that the information from whatever sensor is used gets to the missile team in a timely manner and the ship is aligned to allow engagement of the threat. Pym's right about the countermeasures part, they can be easily automated and can generate an effective soft kill regardless of the approach angle of the threat, especially given that missiles (against which the RBS70 is almost useless) rather than aircraft seem to be the perceived threat.

  20. #1370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medsailor View Post
    Given the effective range of the RBS70, cueing with a staring IR array is probably more effective than with a radar. More difficult is ensuring that the information from whatever sensor is used gets to the missile team in a timely manner and the ship is aligned to allow engagement of the threat. Pym's right about the countermeasures part, they can be easily automated and can generate an effective soft kill regardless of the approach angle of the threat, especially given that missiles (against which the RBS70 is almost useless) rather than aircraft seem to be the perceived threat.
    The more reaction time you can give the better.

    You also need a man in the loop. Automatisation has its limits/problems.

    The Arty have a box that is deployed with the RBS70, which uses Giraffe info to tell the SAM commander the direction, range and altitude of the target.

  21. #1371
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    Too small?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    I would be highly doubtful that any of our hulls could take such upgrades of hardware/support systems and the additional manpower. Trying to make OPV's into Corvette's/Light Frigates isn't going to work, if there's political will for combat deployments buy a Warship, rather than trying to upgrade the OPV's.
    Like putting systems on top of buildings, trucks, you can put the right equipment on any ship once you design in the required systems and power. Take a look at the US Ambassador 111 ( 600 tonne FAC ) it bristles with everything from 76mm, 30mm, Harpoon, to CIWS Phalanx. With the right crew mix, and integrated systems crew sizes can be quite adaptable, controlling 708 migrants is an example. The new RN 90m OPV's are fielding 34 with a top up capability of 60. When building any ship for Naval use capability must be a factor that after all dictates it's operational uses.

  22. #1372
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The more reaction time you can give the better.

    You also need a man in the loop. Automatisation has its limits/problems.

    The Arty have a box that is deployed with the RBS70, which uses Giraffe info to tell the SAM commander the direction, range and altitude of the target.
    Agreed, the only difference being that on land they'll set up with a clear field of fire 360 degrees around. On a ship, you may have to turn the whole vessel to bring the target into the effective arc of fire. With a missile taking maybe 10-15 seconds to come in from 5000 metres, that is going to take up alot of your available time. Soft-kill options have the advantage of 360 degree coverage as soon as deployed.

  23. #1373
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    Perhaps the rather obvious answer is to have enough CIWS on the ship to handle a 360 threat, and to have both Hard and soft kill defensive systems.

    Expensive on the sheet of paper, but compared to a 2,000 ton ship with 80+ crew burning brightly and then sinking quickly it's children's pocket money...

  24. #1374
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Perhaps the rather obvious answer is to have enough CIWS on the ship to handle a 360 threat, and to have both Hard and soft kill defensive systems.

    Expensive on the sheet of paper, but compared to a 2,000 ton ship with 80+ crew burning brightly and then sinking quickly it's children's pocket money...
    The voice of reason! (and lotsa money!)

    Wishing all a peaceful Christmas and exciting 2017.

    Medsailor

  25. #1375
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    EPV or MRV

    Quote Originally Posted by Medsailor View Post
    The voice of reason! (and lotsa money!)

    Wishing all a peaceful Christmas and exciting 2017.

    Medsailor
    And the same to All our Seafaring Friends in Malta. Conflicts have taught us that there is No advantage in trying to overpower an enemy by standing eyeball to eyeball and slugging it out. Modern technology requires us to conduct warfare at a distance using smart munitions and at least some passive target acquisition to send your homing weapons on their way. Costs are always relative to the wanted outcome. Our Navy had it all post WW11 but allowed a "ships of any type" policy fragment both our capability and our training structures.

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