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  • Firmly in the skeptic camp here, but fingers crossed. Any upgrade in capability would be great.

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    • Originally posted by Toolbox View Post
      Could be massive news in the next few days folks.

      Really big development but unfortunately nothing concrete or official so I cannot say more.


      Ah come on..... Thats just cruel!!!! . Give a hint, go on go on go on go on go go, GO ON!!!

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      • Originally posted by pym View Post
        Firmly in the skeptic camp here, but fingers crossed. Any upgrade in capability would be great.
        Fully agree and understand the skeptic view, just wondering why they would put it out there? I mean how many average voters would care one way or the other?

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        • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
          (a) I did, I read it for what it is.
          (b) That government no longer exists.
          but all the other organisations that inputed into it do!

          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
          Doesn't exist in any recognisable form without evolving into a frigate, an LPD or Replenishment type vessel.
          Which is how you end up with a MRV

          Ands thats why we invested so heavily in purpose built OPV's when any vessel can do it?
          your misunderstanding me

          It can't be the Med deployment as that has been well flagged so it's not that.
          Has another deployment definitely been announced?


          Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
          Still surprised that FG have bothered floating the suggestion of another ship, wouldn't have thought it was much of a voter issue outside of people like us.
          If there is 10 votes in it they would

          If they want it in the next 5 years they will have to do the RFT very quickly

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          • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            Fully agree and understand the skeptic view, just wondering why they would put it out there? I mean how many average voters would care one way or the other?
            If it's a system/equipment freebie - the cheap/donated Flycatchers, Rheinmetalls and RBS70's the DF obtained over the last decade or so raised no interest from the media whatsoever.

            To make a move that could have positive political implications - I don't think we'd necessarily be talking vessels, but an infrastructure project for Cork/Haulbowline, which happens to have positive implications for the NS. E.G. the dockyard.

            Another wild guess, maybe the neighbours are eager enough to keep Appledore in business that a P64 isn't going to be any more expensive to ourselves than P63.
            4 P60's, 2 P50's, 2xMINE/CPVs, 1x MRV and you have FG's 9 ship navy.

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            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Has another deployment definitely been announced?
              Given the deaths that have already happened in the Aegean and NATO getting involved and Greece being given 3 months to sort things out or be suspended from Schengen I'd say there "requests" anyway. Suppose it will depend on the powers that be post election.

              If there is 10 votes in it they would

              If they want it in the next 5 years they will have to do the RFT very quickly
              I suppose so, just didn't think it would shift votes much one way or the other, if they even went for just a follow up P64 would that be any faster than previous tenders or face the same time constraints?

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              • i suppose one of the other factors that would support an 'MRV' that looked a lot like a POINT class vessel is that within a European/EU/UN context that kind of Sealift is a very valuable political/diplomatic tool - you would have a capability that lots of people would like to use but that few have.

                the ability to move a Mech Inf Coy is, in European terms, small beer. the ability to move a Mech Inf Bn is not small beer, and the number of EUBG's - for example - who might need such sealift greatly outweighs the number who have it. it is a very good way of winning friends and influencing people - its relatively cheap compared to a 'fighty' frigate or landing ship, its politically easier because it won't produce casualties or dead babies on the news, and the ability/willingness to assist other EU nations with the logistics of their operations will win you brownie points like its going out of fashion.

                however, you'd need to be clear about what they are and what they are not: vessels like the POINT class are one trick ponies - the ability to do much other than move stuff from A to B is negligable, you couldn't operate helicopters from them, you can't really turn them into hospital ships, and their ability to move lots of people is great, but not comfortable.

                i know we've done trials with Armoured vehicles where we sail a Mexefloat up to the ship in open water, and the wagons disembark off the POINT via its rear ramp onto the Mexefloat which then sails off to the beach.

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                • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                  i suppose one of the other factors that would support an 'MRV' that looked a lot like a POINT class vessel is that within a European/EU/UN context that kind of Sealift is a very valuable political/diplomatic tool - you would have a capability that lots of people would like to use but that few have.

                  the ability to move a Mech Inf Coy is, in European terms, small beer. the ability to move a Mech Inf Bn is not small beer, and the number of EUBG's - for example - who might need such sealift greatly outweighs the number who have it. it is a very good way of winning friends and influencing people - its relatively cheap compared to a 'fighty' frigate or landing ship, its politically easier because it won't produce casualties or dead babies on the news, and the ability/willingness to assist other EU nations with the logistics of their operations will win you brownie points like its going out of fashion.

                  however, you'd need to be clear about what they are and what they are not: vessels like the POINT class are one trick ponies - the ability to do much other than move stuff from A to B is negligable, you couldn't operate helicopters from them, you can't really turn them into hospital ships, and their ability to move lots of people is great, but not comfortable.

                  i know we've done trials with Armoured vehicles where we sail a Mexefloat up to the ship in open water, and the wagons disembark off the POINT via its rear ramp onto the Mexefloat which then sails off to the beach.
                  I think that's an interesting point about how much it might be of value to both the Nordic group and others if we went down that route.

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                  • However in doing so we lose the primary requirement, EEZ patrol.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • And you will have to forgive the deflation lad sorry.

                      People got stuff mixed I think so I will not add to the rumour, lies are around the whole before the truth has its boots on!

                      Forgive me and back to the day dreaming!

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                      • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                        However in doing so we lose the primary requirement, EEZ patrol.
                        i think you're going to have that problem with any ship that isn't on the CPV-OPV-Corvette-Frigate road, and the truth is that with Irelands political aversion to 'warry' stuff, and the very limited resource envelope, the ships you have on the CPV-OPV-Corvette-Frigate road are going to be very much second string to what other EU countries provide for the same op.

                        even your newest and most capable ships - the P60 class and LE Eithne - are ships that barely get a 'meh' within EU Naval Staffs because compared to everyone elses Frigates they are a long way behind in capability, and unless you want to start spending €400m on each ship it'll stay that way. its therefore madness to try and chase that pack, far better to chose a different pack to chase. logistic support is a much neglected, cheaper, safer avenue - if you want a hard political calculation, you could spend €150m on a SuperOPV+ and it wouldn't raise a 'Meh' if offered to an EU op, however if you offered a €150m POINT class type ship, they'd bite your hand off.

                        i suppose the crux is whether Ireland should have an EEZ patrolling fleet that can do other things as well, or two seperate fleets - one that does EEZ patrolling, and one that does other things. one is ever more complex OPV's that are overkill for EEZ work but arguably underkill for overseas stuff, the other is OPV's suited, and priced, for the EEZ role with the other one-two-three vessels suited and priced for EU/UN operations.

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                        • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                          i suppose the crux is whether Ireland should have an EEZ patrolling fleet that can do other things as well, or two seperate fleets - one that does EEZ patrolling, and one that does other things. one is ever more complex OPV's that are overkill for EEZ work but arguably underkill for overseas stuff, the other is OPV's suited, and priced, for the EEZ role with the other one-two-three vessels suited and priced for EU/UN operations.
                          Well unless the EU is going to fund and man it....

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                          • Here's what it takes to have amphibious capability.

                            4,500 troops, including heli and tilt rotor

                            More than 4,500 Marines and sailors with the Boxer Amphibious Readiness Group and the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit set out to sea Friday en route to the Western Pacific and the Middle East.

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                            • Would the FG manifesto reference to a 9 ship flotilla be the first hint of expending the NS beyond a purely patrolling role? The language suggested to me that a 9th ship was to allow for that.

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                              • See what it actually says, "The ship replacement programme will continue and over the lifetime of the White Paper, Fine Gael will move from a 8- to a 9-ship naval flotilla, to provide for a multi-role vessel."

                                That would indicate that if returned to power (in the next WP) they may increase the number of OPVs.

                                Any party's is a list of promises which you expect to be broken. They probably didn't read their own WP, as per the WP Eithne is to be replaced by a MRV.

                                So this to me would mean, if FG get back in Eithne will be replaced by an OPV and the MRV will be long fingered.
                                Last edited by DeV; 17 February 2016, 12:37.

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