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  • #16
    On the night in question, firstly the air corps were asked if they could provide top cover, and low and behold the AC were not in a position to do so.

    Thankfully once again the UK provided an aircraft, as the Nimrod's are now out of service and the C130's are quite busy with some wars going on at the minute, the top cover was provided by a Reims Cessna F406, hence there call sign Rescue 406.

    "As is well known, the AC has never provided an on-call CASA for top-cover (or any other duty). It is done on an opportunity basis and it isn't a declared asset to IRCG".

    I am well aware of the declared assets the IRCG have but the Nimrods and the C130's we have used in the past are not declared assets even to the UK CG. The point is there are 2 Casa'a sitting in Bal more than able to perform the task and may I say are very good at providing top-cover when they do, but when they are required sometimes i.e. after ½ 4 the shop is packed up and there is no crews available.

    "1. Do SAR helicopters have SATCOM? Is such a comms facility available?

    2. Was there a Naval Service patrol vessel anywhere in the vicinity?"

    Answers have already been given but:
    1. The current fleet do not have SATCOM S 92's will have as we see the need for it when we will be going up to 348nm off-shore with no top cover, this is only good as has been stated to get messages back to shore. HF on our current machines works well but cannot be used when winching.
    2. There was no Naval Vessel in the Vicinity, if there had have been it would not have made any difference as the Medevac was off the Juan De La Cosa the Spanish hospital ship which has the same comms capabilities as a naval vessel.

    Last point, Top cover is not all about comms with either the mainland or the Vessel, allot is instant knowledge of the exact vessels position, best winching area, have the crew familiar or do they have to be briefed on procedures and if something really bad was to go wrong, i.e man over board, vessel sinking completely or God forbid the Heli ditching, the top cover can get the necessary assets in place faster and thus hopefully a better out-come for all.

    Someone has stated that the Casa does not always carry a droppable life-raft is this true??
    Although I have walked in the valley of the shadows of death I fear no evil...

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    • #17
      Reims Cessna F 406, i.e Rescue 406
      Attached Files
      Although I have walked in the valley of the shadows of death I fear no evil...

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      • #18
        Not sure what it is now but in 2003, CASA availability was 75% (up from 51% in 1998).
        Wow, for the CASA service thats an amazing 32.5% servicability per aircraft!!! It should be at least 75% PER AIRCRAFT allowing a service overlap of over 50% to cover one aircraft down time. This is just pathetic.

        As is well known, the AC has never provided an on-call CASA for top-cover (or any other duty). It is done on an opportunity basis and it isn't a declared asset to IRCG.
        Well this says it all. In 16 years of service assets worth £34IR Mil, upgraded recently at a cost to the tax payer of another €10mil has never, ever provided an on call 24hr service of any kind. And thats meant to be in their defence!!!
        The sooner this and many other tasks are given to financally and operationally accountable organisations the better. This is just sickening.

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        • #19
          You wouldn't hear any agruments for me against the fact that CASAs should be available (and IMHO be declared assets to IRCG) but there may be reasons why they can't be. But a lot of it could be down to the work culture in Baldonnel.

          Remember there is more to the crew than those on the flight deck, there is 6+ in a crew (SAROs, photographer etc, obviously depends on the mission).

          Originally posted by SARMAN View Post
          I am well aware of the declared assets the IRCG have but the Nimrods and the C130's we have used in the past are not declared assets even to the UK CG.
          According to the MCA website the Nimrod that the RAF had a 2 hours readiness 24/7 was a declared asset.

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          • #20
            But a lot of it could be down to the work culture in Baldonnel.
            Nothing surer.

            Remember there is more to the crew than those on the flight deck, there is 6+ in a crew
            So what. If you cannot provide the service then give it to somebody else.

            Interestingly WRT lack of people the AC has a fleet of what amybe 25 aircraft? and this requires 750 personnel!! and still cant get enough people to keep aircraft serviceable, on call and available.
            Yes, Yes I know firecrew, airfield, transport blah, blah, blah. How many personnel and aircraft do you think it would take for civiy organisations to produce the current AC output? A hell of a lot less and thats what the AC should be using as a metre stick.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Tadpole View Post
              Wow, for the CASA service thats an amazing 32.5% servicability per aircraft!!! It should be at least 75% PER AIRCRAFT allowing a service overlap of over 50% to cover one aircraft down time. This is just pathetic.
              And part of the problem

              Well this says it all. In 16 years of service assets worth £34IR Mil, upgraded recently at a cost to the tax payer of another €10mil has never, ever provided an on call 24hr service of any kind. And thats meant to be in their defence!!!
              The sooner this and many other tasks are given to financally and operationally accountable organisations the better. This is just sickening.
              Have the Government tasked the AC to provide the service???

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              • #22
                "Have the Government tasked the AC to provide the service???"

                Will ask my TD to ask that one when they get back from there holidays...
                Although I have walked in the valley of the shadows of death I fear no evil...

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                • #23
                  Hi all,
                  The AC couldn't handle it's ass.I was in it for long enough to know.The maintenance system is fragmented between hangars (an attempt, years ago, to centralise maintenance, was defeated by certain few senior techies and a certain few of the officers)), top heavy with too many managers (flight sergeants) and far too few hands-on and with no proper, intelligent roster.Far too many pilots and techs are allowed/assigned to non-aircraft duties so a significant amount of flying/tech pay is paid to pilots who never fly and technicians who do not turn spanners.A lot of what they do should be done by civilian staff, as it is in the real world outside the gate. An Air Corps that cannot deploy it's maritime aircraft 24-7 is a waste of space.
                  regards
                  GttC

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                  • #24
                    Topcover

                    What exactly happened in Sligo that put paid to IAC SAR ?

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                    • #25
                      Is anyone really surprised at this? Just look at the investment in th Air Corpse over the years and you can see that the priority for the goverment is boots on the ground followed by the navy. The Air Corpse is not a government priority by a long shot. Yes the Air Corpse got a few lovely new PC-9's but lets be honest even this was a cop out for a training plane and should have something with even a jet engine, Tucano etc. etc.
                      Sorry, but the Air Corpse is just a glorified private airline for the government ministers. Are we seriously saying that this country could not even afford 2-3 new CJ130's over the last ten years to give us that little bit more capacity. Are we seriously saying that we could not find someone with the will to shape the Air Corp into a proper organistaion and to provide them with the required manpower and tools for the job.The government don't care, that is until something happens. Even then, a few red faces for a while, sack a few people and hope people forget about what happened and move on as normal. The Air India incident should have taught the government a big lesson about properly equiping the Air Corp but as I say, they chose to stay low forget it and kept quite hoping the that pathetic air cover that we provided would be forgotten and it was. After the latest Navy acquisitions Air Corp has to be next especially if we are to extend our territorial waters. I feel sorry for the guys that probably do want to have the 24/7 service and to be as good as our neighbours but until the money and the will to do are there don't hold yer breath.
                      Sorry for the rant and if I offended anyone.

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                      • #26
                        What exactly happened in Sligo that put paid to IAC SAR ?
                        Helo was sent back . no requirement when SAR was given over to coast guard.

                        I think the CG seriously needs to look at providing its own top cover AC. No point in relying on some esle when their availability record is so low.

                        I have no doubt the AC could very easily justify the lack of availability but that wouldn't solve the issue. Given what is being paid for the helo service , what would the extra cost be to have a fixed wing asset available?
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by danno View Post
                          What exactly happened in Sligo that put paid to IAC SAR ?
                          Danno,

                          Not wanting to sound cheeky but this is well covered in previous threads and a search will give you the answers you require.

                          Look, its quite simple.The minister for transport quoted recently servicability rates of 33% for AC SAR helis when in use, compared to 97% for IRCG helis. In simple terms that like having an ambulance covering emergencies 3 out of 10 times, Nobody here can say that is a service to be proud of. Now the some people in the AC wonder why their not included.

                          Really, we can list all the reasons/ excuses for this very poor availability rate. But if the AC want to hold on to the deminishing services they provide to the nation they really have to take a good hard look at themselves, take some responsibilty for the state they are in, and start using their initiative and become more proactive, if that means working nights and weekends than so be it. IRCG SAR crews dont have the luxury of not providing a service at night or weekends why should it be different in the AC (aid to the civil power) and all that stuff.

                          We as a nation should be able to provide this top cover and stop the bulls#@t of expecting others to do it.

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                          • #28
                            SAR Topcover

                            Roger That,is provision of topcover part of/ referred to in the IRCG contract ie can service be validly declined in the absence of same.

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                            • #29
                              Is this the ship involved, the Spanish 'Juan de la Cosa'? Seems to be a hospital ship, with a helideck aft.



                              Just wondering, what exactly was the top cover needed for, on this particular flight?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Gunner75 View Post
                                Yes the Air Corpse got a few lovely new PC-9's but lets be honest even this was a cop out for a training plane and should have something with even a jet engine, Tucano etc. etc.
                                The PC9 has a jet turbine engine, far superior aircraft to the tucano

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