SAR Topcover

[mavman]

The Casa is not a declared SAR asset. It is a fishery protection asset declared to the SFPA (Sea Fishery Protection Agency) and Naval service. Its operation is mandated through an SLA (Service Level Agreement) between the SFPA and Air Corps as required by the EU. The Government have not requested it to carry out SAR tasks but the Air Corps does facilitate if it can. Top cover after hours can only be ad hoc as no shift system is in place (or required) to provide for crews to be on call/standby. The Air Corps is set up to do the job it is asked to do. It cant decide government policy. How many of us are always available to drop what we are doing if a call comes in to go back to work.

[Helihead]

Roger That,is provision of topcover part of/ referred to in the IRCG contract ie can service be validly declined in the absence of same.

As I understand it a service level agreement exists between the IRCG and IAC in relation to the casa, don't know much more than that I'm afraid.

[SARMAN]

"Just wondering, what exactly was the top cover needed for, on this particular flight?"

170nm from shore, due very poor weather heli had to fly the trip low level, therefore we lost FM comms 70miles off-shore, and could not contact the Juan De La Cosa until about 40 miles away, AIS line of sight so got vessel on AIS around the same time we got within comms range.

Easyrider, top cover is not all about comms with the vessel and the mainland or locating, what if something happened the heli, either on route or in the winching phase. Or does that not matter to you?

But do not worry the way its looking the UK CG will once again be looking after us in Irish waters. With two aircraft fit for purpose sitting in the most expensive flying club in the world.

[Tadpole]

How many of us are always available to drop what we are doing if a call comes in to go back to work.

All of us whose employers have committed to provide a proper service to the state with the provision of a simple roster system. Frankly if the crews only want to work part time, only pay them part time. Where's Mc Carthy when you need him.

As for this notion that the Government haven't asked them to do it, the CG through Government did request it. At the start of this year the CASA set up a 24hr roster for SAR topcover. Less then a month later it had broken down. If I know the AC at all it was probably to do with in house fighting, lack of control and quite frankly lack of interest.

[Jetjock]

How many of us are always available to drop what we are doing if a call comes in to go back to work.

That phrase demonstrates quite well why the only thing military about the Air Corps is the uniform. A very civilian way of looking at things. And that's an insult to civilian aircraft ops.

Easyrider as regards the reasons for Top Cover. 200nm is at the edge of the range capabilities. Having an aircraft that can locate the vessel in question from altitude and put you right on top of it is a big help to your fuel situation.

SARMAN. Don't know what the policy is but anytime I have been onboard a CASA over the years there has always been a liferaft on the rear ramp.

[pym]

Good god this makes for embarrassing reading.

I think of the volunteer lifeboat crews who are there, ready to respond to a call at any hour - and then you have this; state assets which could make the difference between life and death, sitting on the ground because it's a Sunday night.

This isn't about the Government, or Whitepapers - The Air Corps themselves should have the drive to deliver a necessary service without being compelled to do so from above.

What's it going to take though? An elderly S-61 ditching and losing a crew to make them wake up?

SARMAN - is there any system for the CG to lodge official complaints, via the DF ombudsman or anything?

[Helihead]

Tadpole


"At the start of this year the CASA set up a 24hr roster for SAR topcover. Less then a month later it had broken down."

You have basically summed up the IAC with that little nugget, that really says it all. God help us.

[easyrider]

"Just wondering, what exactly was the top cover needed for, on this particular flight?"

170nm from shore, due very poor weather heli had to fly the trip low level, therefore we lost FM comms 70miles off-shore, and could not contact the Juan De La Cosa until about 40 miles away, AIS line of sight so got vessel on AIS around the same time we got within comms range.

Easyrider, top cover is not all about comms with the vessel and the mainland or locating, what if something happened the heli, either on route or in the winching phase. Or does that not matter to you?

But do not worry the way its looking the UK CG will once again be looking after us in Irish waters. With two aircraft fit for purpose sitting in the most expensive flying club in the world.

Sarman, Don't get me wrong, I'm very supportive of the work you guys do, and very unimpressed with the lack of support from the Air Corps. I can understand that there is a feelgood factor in having somebody else up there when you're hundreds of miles out over the ocean, but I was genuinely curious as to the practical function of top cover, in the case of this particular flight.

As far as I understand it - correct me if I'm wrong - it was a medevac rather than a SAR flight, to a known position; the destination was a large Spanish hospital ship, with a clear helideck aft for winching. If there had been any problem at the destination end, would the presence of that Spanish vessel not have been far more useful than any topcover? As for the enroute comms, I'm just amazed that in these days of satellite communications, a marine SAR helicopter doesn't have the appropriate comms equipment. And as for topcover aircraft dropping liferafts, does the heli not carry a liferaft?

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be smart or anything, just trying to figure it out.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all,
In 1954, the RAF took all aircraft-related techs off military duties such as guard duty so as to concentrate on aircraft maintenance. They have had 24/7 shift systems in place, with appropriate pay and conditions since the days of the Brittania and Hercules in the 1960s. Most RAF heavy maintenance is done by civvies in Marshalls of Cambridge.They use civilian contract companies, chock a block with exRAF, as much as possible, such as on the Hawk fleet at Valley, where, to no-one's surprise, the availability rate is much, much higher than the RAF's ever was. The Air Corps is, to no-one's surprise, quite unwilling to do even the first of these things to increase availability of manpower and boost aircraft availability rates.I think the present GoC needs to have a massive shake-up before the Government does it for him.
regards
GttC

[Smithy]

What exactly happened in Sligo that put paid to IAC SAR ?

Have to be careful here. In a nutshell, some members of the helicopter's crew simultaneouly caught an illness which required them to go sick. Therefore the heli on rescue duty in Sligo could not fulfil its tasking. A certain militant element may have been the cause of the sickness (I know how this can happen - they make me sick too!). The Air Corps, despite being a military organisation, could not handle the situation, could not fulfil the task, the Govt. took it from them. Surprise, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
________
Ford custom 500 history

[Helihead]

Not been privey to the finer details of this particular tasking, I think it is fair to say that if the duty crew and commander decided that top cover was required, than that is good enough. I am sure that the decision for top cover is not made lightly.

As a matter of interest SARMAN since the grounding of the Nimrods have you any idea how many times you have looked for top cover from the IAC and how many times it has been made available.

[Helihead]

Have to be careful here. In a nutshell, some members of the helicopter's crew simultaneouly caught an illness which required them to go sick. Therefore the heli on rescue duty in Sligo could not fulfil its tasking. A certain militant element may have been the cause of the sickness (I know how this can happen - they make me sick too!). The Air Corps, despite being a military organisation, could not handle the situation, could not fulfil the task, the Govt. took it from them. Surprise, weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Smithy,
I think you need to be carefull there my friend, as that sorry saga all ended up in court.
Lets try and keep this on thread, its about SAR top cover. In relation to IAC heli SAR the search funtion is a great tool.

[DeV]

The Air Corpse is not a government priority by a long shot. Yes the Air Corpse got a few lovely new PC-9's but lets be honest even this was a cop out for a training plane and should have something with even a jet engine, Tucano etc. etc.

True not priority, but the PC-9 is one of the best trainers of its class. If you want jets you need to train them on the likes of a PC-9 first.

Are we seriously saying that we could not find someone with the will to shape the Air Corp into a proper organistaion and to provide them with the required manpower and tools for the job.

The manpower and tools are mainly up to Government as they provide the resources. Having said that but the looks of things some work practices leave a lot to be desired.

Even then, a few red faces for a while, sack a few people and hope people forget about what happened and move on as normal.

When was the last time someone was sacked in the public service (apart from disciplinary procedings).

I have no doubt the AC could very easily justify the lack of availability but that wouldn't solve the issue. Given what is being paid for the helo service , what would the extra cost be to have a fixed wing asset available?

Giving that it would from scratch probably a bit more but it may encourage some in the AC. Agree with you on easily justifying lack of availability, but if they could do it before the recruitment ban?!

But if the AC want to hold on to the deminishing services they provide to the nation they really have to take a good hard look at themselves, take some responsibilty for the state they are in, and start using their initiative and become more proactive, if that means working nights and weekends than so be it. IRCG SAR crews dont have the luxury of not providing a service at night or weekends why should it be different in the AC (aid to the civil power) and all that stuff.

Well said, but CHC is contractually obliged to proved 24/7 service, the AC isn't. The more I look at the DF (and public service generally) the more I think it is time to employ some people from the business work and have more targets etc.

The Air Corps is set up to do the job it is asked to do. It cant decide government policy. How many of us are always available to drop what we are doing if a call comes in to go back to work.

Exactly!

"Just wondering, what exactly was the top cover needed for, on this particular flight?"

170nm from shore, due very poor weather heli had to fly the trip low level, therefore we lost FM comms 70miles off-shore, and could not contact the Juan De La Cosa until about 40 miles away, AIS line of sight so got vessel on AIS around the same time we got within comms range.

Easyrider, top cover is not all about comms with the vessel and the mainland or locating, what if something happened the heli, either on route or in the winching phase. Or does that not matter to you?

But do not worry the way its looking the UK CG will once again be looking after us in Irish waters. With two aircraft fit for purpose sitting in the most expensive flying club in the world.

Looking at the MCA/UKCG website SARMAN, the aircraft that did provide you topcover in fairness to them isn't a declared asset either. But it is a pollution control/surveillance platform, it doesn't say if it can carry liferafts etc.

SARMAN - is there any system for the CG to lodge official complaints, via the DF ombudsman or anything?

As I've previously stated the CASAs are not declared SAR assets and therefore do not have to provide top cover, if it was possible at the time a call comes in I'm sure they would.

[Helihead]

"As I've previously stated the CASAs are not declared SAR assets and therefore do not have to provide top cover, if it was possible at the time a call comes in I'm sure they would."

So what was the purpose of setting up 24 hr roster that lasted all of a month to provide top cover as quoted by Tadpole.

I suppose it all boils down to wanting to provide top cover or not. If it is yes from the IAC then provide the service (24/7, 365). If it is no let somebody esle provide the service, whats in place at the moment is just not adequate.

[Goldie fish]

If you commit too many pilots to flying the CASA, who will be left to taxi the govt to las vegas?