SAR Topcover

[SARMAN]

"Looking at the MCA/UKCG website SARMAN, the aircraft that did provide you topcover in fairness to them isn't a declared asset either. But it is a pollution control/surveillance platform, it doesn't say if it can carry liferafts etc."

I have been told it did have a liferaft on-board that night, and does carry them on all flights as you never know what might happen when your out doing maritime work.

[DeV]

I suppose it all boils down to wanting to provide top cover or not. If it is yes from the IAC then provide the service (24/7, 365). If it is no let somebody esle provide the service, whats in place at the moment is just not adequate.

Who wants to???? The AC doesn't have the option.... have they been tasked to by the Government as a declared asset???? no, the DF don't decide the jobs they do Government does!

If you commit too many pilots to flying the CASA, who will be left to taxi the govt to las vegas?

Exactly ... that is where Government priorities are!

[Pure Hover]

Dev, nice to hear a moderate voice in recent posts in yet another poisonous anti AC thread. Makes good reading though. You can almost taste the bitterness!

Lots of SAR missions are carried out without Topcover - it's not always available - fact - for a variety of reasons. The AC CASA's are not declared assets and you'll probably find the crews are not been paid for outside hours work due to cutbacks.

However considering the lashing they're getting from CHC recently, SARMAN included, I wouldn't be expecting them to drop everything for you guys in the near future.

Maybe it is time for a Coastguard Air Wing..........!

[Helihead]

So, from reading most of the threads the conclusion is that whoever is or isn't providing the service of top cover, that the current arrangment is not fit for purpose and needs sorted.

[Tadpole]

The AC doesn't have the option.... have they been tasked to by the Government as a declared asset???? no, the DF don't decide the jobs they do Government does!

The difference is that the Army and Naval Service realise that they can mould the future of their service to a certain extent and this is exactly what they do. A perfect example is the Navy ERV tender. Although now hit by funding the Navy fought for a capability to assist the Army overseas and provide extended patrols. THEY influenced government policy and got the potential for NEW equipment in a NEW role.

Conversely the Air Corps sit on their a*** with current equipment, in a very attainable role and expect operations to be lorded upon them. Well Im sorry but its time to either use it or loose it and dont expect sympathy when its gone to a Civil company and you trot out the old 'but we weren't asked to'. Its NO excuse. The aircraft are available, the personnel are available and the flight hours are available, its just the will that's missing.

As for fisheries thats not exactly a sparkling record either.

[Helihead]

Dev, nice to hear a moderate voice in recent posts in yet another poisonous anti AC thread. Makes good reading though. You can almost taste the bitterness!

Lots of SAR missions are carried out without Topcover - it's not always available - fact - for a variety of reasons. The AC CASA's are not declared assets and you'll probably find the crews are not been paid for outside hours work due to cutbacks.

However considering the lashing they're getting from CHC recently, SARMAN included, I wouldn't be expecting them to drop everything for you guys in the near future.

Maybe it is time for a Coastguard Air Wing..........!

Pure hover,

What lashing is that, CHC have just won a ten year contract for heli SAR, Im sure they are delighted, not bitter. This thread started with an observation from SARMAN and has been very active since. I didn't see any retired members of CHC write to the papers, talk on matt Copper show, Joe Duffy show, RTE news, about what their capabilities are and give us a go... Hardly a week has passed and this happens, hmmmm, bitter.

So The IAC are dropping everything for the IRCG when they ask for top cover, Im sure the CG are very sorry for having to disturb people from thier slumbers.With stuff like this you strenghten the argument to privatise top cover. Im sure the fixed wing asset that gave top cover over the weekend will become a common feature from here on in by the looks of things then..

By the way , this is bigger than personalities within IRCG, CHC, IAC. THis is about providing a world class service to people who are in distress

Maybe it is time for A Coast Guard air wing

[easyrider]

Another question for the experts: if topcover is needed for Coastguard helicopter flights on a regular basis, wouldn't it be better to have the topcover aircraft based in Shannon also?

[Tadpole]

However considering the lashing they're getting from CHC recently, SARMAN included, I wouldn't be expecting them to drop everything for you guys in the near future.

I dont think they do expect it.....thats the point!!!

[SARMAN]

Dev, nice to hear a moderate voice in recent posts in yet another poisonous anti AC thread. Makes good reading though. You can almost taste the bitterness!

Lots of SAR missions are carried out without Topcover - it's not always available - fact - for a variety of reasons. The AC CASA's are not declared assets and you'll probably find the crews are not been paid for outside hours work due to cutbacks.

However considering the lashing they're getting from CHC recently, SARMAN included, I wouldn't be expecting them to drop everything for you guys in the near future.

Maybe it is time for a Coastguard Air Wing..........!

Pure Hover, I suggest you go back and read my posts, at no stage have I given the lads a lashing (as you put it).

My point is two aircraft in Bal with more than cappable crews and having no availablity to provide top cover off our coastal waters, for long enough we have relayed on the UK assets for SAR in our waters, I feel its about time we became a self sufficent nation and provide adaquate ressurces to the people at sea in our waters.

I do not expect the Air Corps to "DROP EVERTHING" for us in the near future, but one things for sure if the AC need any assistance from me in the near future, I would have no problem in "DROPING EVERYTHING."

As for my bitterness, get over yourself why would I be bitter towards the Air Corps they gave me the training to do the job I am doing today.

Easyrider, It probably would be better to have a top cover aircraft on the West coast but as long as the top cover aircraft can get to the scene before the heli, there is no major problem.

[Papa 242]

I fully agree with Helihead on the point of this not being about personalities,corporate identities etc!
This is a National requirment for an integral part of a National SAR Service!
Top cover is not just there to give the heli crews someone to talk to if they get lonely!!!!
Top Cover's role is to fly out ahead of the rotary assets, establish comms, assess weather for on route and low level, search for and pinpoint the target vessel, guide and direct the rotary assets to target by fastest route, ensure target is who and where he should be and on prescribed heading for intercept by heli!
Fuel and time on station is the critical factor here..the faster you get the vessel and the heli connected the better for everyone!
Top cover can relay medical information back to the heli, long before the heli has comms with the vessel and get the crew of the vessel briefed and prepped for the heli's arrival on scene.
Top cover keeps the Coast Guard RCC updated on all of the above!
And, on top of all that ,he is the safety net for the other assets should the worst happen!
This is not a task to be taken lightly, and no one, ..I repeat! no one,.. values and appreciates it more than the heli crews,...no matter what nationality or colour of flying suit worn!
We should not have to be beholden to anyone else to cover our own area of responsibility and to look after our crews! I know SAR is always considered to be above nationality and boundaries,but, if we have the physical assets available within our own services,there must be a dedicated effort to declare them as part of our Government SAR Strategy!

[DeV]

My point is two aircraft in Bal with more than cappable crews and having no availablity to provide top cover off our coastal waters, for long enough we have relayed on the UK assets for SAR in our waters, I feel its about time we became a self sufficent nation and provide adaquate ressurces to the people at sea in our waters.

Agreed SARMAN should have happened years ago but why don't IRCG (or CHC) request the Government to make AC CASAs a declared asset to provide topcover (even during daylight hours, M-F (something would be better than nothing))?

Easyrider, It probably would be better to have a top cover aircraft on the West coast but as long as the top cover aircraft can get to the scene before the heli, there is no major problem.

If it was an AC CASA we were it would give slightly longer endurance for a much higher cost and making crewing & maintenance even more difficult. Plus a CASA's radar can start picking up contacts once it takes off from Baldonnel.

The Nimrods were at 2 hours notice, IRCG helicopters 15/45 minutes so even when Nimrod was around it helicopter would be in the area before the Nimrod. Unless it was retasked while airborne or the helicopter delayed takeoff until the Nimrod was onscene.

Top Cover's role is to fly out ahead of the rotary assets, establish comms, assess weather for on route and low level, search for and pinpoint the target vessel, guide and direct the rotary assets to target by fastest route, ensure target is who and where he should be and on prescribed heading for intercept by heli!
Fuel and time on station is the critical factor here..the faster you get the vessel and the heli connected the better for everyone!
Top cover can relay medical information back to the heli, long before the heli has comms with the vessel and get the crew of the vessel briefed and prepped for the heli's arrival on scene.

Plus it would be even more important if you don't know exactly where the location is, eg an Air India type situation.

We should not have to be beholden to anyone else to cover our own area of responsibility and to look after our crews! I know SAR is always considered to be above nationality and boundaries,but, if we have the physical assets available within our own services,there must be a dedicated effort to declare them as part of our Government SAR Strategy!

What are the Brits going to use for their top cover now? Considering their SAR responsibilities are further into the Atlantic than ours?

[Goldie fish]

What are the Brits going to use for their top cover now? Considering their SAR responsibilities are further into the Atlantic than ours?

C130 Hercules or whatever else is available

[balkanhawk]

Hi all,

As far as I know the Service Level Agreement signed in 2008 only required the CASA to be called out if available, NOT available 24 hrs. Correct me if im wrong? If the government/DoD/DoT or CG really needed the 24 hr cover it would, im sure, be implemented and the necessary resources provided.

The other point to remember is that the CASA is first and foremost a maritime patrol aircraft partly funded by the EU to do that job. From what I know they are out there everyday including weekends (i know a guy in shannon ATC).

There is no way the topcover role will be privatised, the expense would not justify the usage. One maybe two topcover flights a week at most. This is especially true in todays economic climate.

[Tadpole]

From what I know they are out there everyday including weekends

Not even close. The last DF Annual Report publish on the web shows only 268 Fishery patrols in 2008. That means that for 26.6% of the year there were NO fishery patrols. This doesn't even mention that the patrols that did happen probably took place between 0900 and 1630. Strangely fishermen, in particular dodgy ones, fish at night as well. Interestingly weekends account for 28.5% of the year......

There is no way the topcover role will be privatised, the expense would not justify the usage. One maybe two topcover flights a week at most. This is especially true in todays economic climate.

Correct, if you were getting a machine just for top cover. However to provide a civil alternative that covers all of the CASA roles, the requirements of the CG and Customs and be on call 24/7 could be provided with a huge increase in usefulness to the state with an overall reduction in costs.

[Goldie fish]

I think moving the Operation out of the don would be a good start. Air Corpse seem to be too interested in uniforms. Give them a new one. A naval uniform, and they can work Naval hours.