SAR Topcover

[pmtts]

C130 Hercules or whatever else is available

Possibly a HH-60G from Lakenheath if a fat albert is not on hand?

[Helihead]

"As far as I know the Service Level Agreement signed in 2008 only required the CASA to be called out if available, NOT available 24 hrs".

Thats the point. As I understand it the CASA was in the hanger when requested for top cover, it wasn't doing something else, but still was not available. However was available for the Bray airshow the following day.
I think I'm starting to go round in circles here now.

If its a case of the aircraft doing some other job at the time, well thats just bad luck for the heli crew looking top cover.
I still cant understand how a 24 roster can be set up to provide top cover and then fall apart after a month and nobody has to answer for this. Where else would you get this type of stuff.

[DeV]

Not even close. The last DF Annual Report publish on the web shows only 268 Fishery patrols in 2008. That means that for 26.6% of the year there were NO fishery patrols.

I presume you mean for the CASA because this is what the NS did?!:

DF Annual Output Statements:
2009 - 1426 patrol days
2008 - 1658 patrol days
2007 - 1,661 patrol days


CASA Missions & Flights Hrs
2009 - 306 missions - 1666 hrs
2008 - 300 missions - 1666 hrs
2007 - 235 missions - 1425 hrs

Thats the point. As I understand it the CASA was in the hanger when requested for top cover, it wasn't doing something else, but still was not available.

Was it servicable? Was a crew available?

If you want to look at maintenance in the AC I suggest you read - http://www.defence.ie/website.nsf/do...25735B0032C9A3

[SARMAN]

CASA Missions & Flights Hrs
2009 - 306 missions - 1666 hrs
2008 - 300 missions - 1666 hrs
2007 - 235 missions - 1425 hrs

Using this info, 1666hrs shared between two aircraft, each aircraft 833hrs per year, 69hrs per month thus 17.3hrs per week.

Thats about two long range patrols a week. I know you have on-going maintaince etc, but that is hardly hours to be shouting from the rooftops.

[Tadpole]

I presume you mean for the CASA because this is what the NS did?!:

Considering its the Air Corps section and a discussion about the CASA what else would it be about

2008 - 300 missions - 1666 hrs

This figure is TOTAL CASA missions and flights hrs. Fish pat missions in 2008 already correct as stated at 268: http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/p...20version).pdf

I assume the 2009 is also TOTAL missions and fish pats are likely to be a good portion less.

Interestingly in 2008 the CASA did the princely sum of 3 Top Cover missions.

Agree with SARMAN 300 total missions and 1700hrs in a year aint nothin to be shouting about.

[Pure Hover]

Be interested to know how many Long Range missions there were that required or requested Top Cover in 2009. Seem to remember the CASA being involved in a few high profile ones? Could easily have been 2008 though.

[Helihead]

Was it servicable? Was a crew available?

I don't know but there are two casa's, right. Either both were u/s, one u/s, or both were s. One was certanly s on the Sunday for the Bray airshow. Unless someone can tell me different I am going to assume the same aircraft was s the night before sitting in the hanger ready for the big day, and a crew wasn't. That would tie in with the falling apart of the 24 hr roster that was put in place and has been mentioned here.

I hear budget cuts been mentioned here, so am I to assume overtime is paid for weekend and night duties in the Don and that this could be an issue.

[Michael Gilligan]

I see that the Casa has no problem turning out for displays, its listed for the Rose Of Tralee Display and surprise surprise thats taking place on a Saturday Evening.

Link: http://www.airshowtralee.com/Initial-Line-Up.html

[DeV]

so am I to assume overtime is paid for weekend and night duties in the Don and that this could be an issue.

No such thing as overtime in the DF, apart from maybe the civilians (there are civilian avonics inspectors employed).

I don't know but there are two casa's, right. Either both were u/s, one u/s, or both were s. One was certanly s on the Sunday for the Bray airshow. Unless someone can tell me different I am going to assume the same aircraft was s the night before sitting in the hanger ready for the big day, and a crew wasn't. That would tie in with the falling apart of the 24 hr roster that was put in place and has been mentioned here.

Has anyone commenting actually read the VFM Report that I provided the link to??

I'm not sure how things have improved since it was published in 2006 (apart from new aircraft) but:

The CASA is now the most maintenance intenstive aircraft the AC has (6.4 hours per flight hour).

In 2002, 103 Sqn (which maintains 2 CASAs, the GIV, the BKA200, the Defender, the Cessna and the Learjet) had only 73% of its establishment. Avonics Sqn (402) had only 52% of its establishment!

In Feb 03, only 87% of maintenance personnel were actually employed on technical work, of all those employed on technical work only 14% were directly employed on aircraft maintenance in the hangers.

This means there was 33 personnel (44 if you include avonics) responsible for the servicing of 33 aircraft of 13 types. There wouldn't be main that are trained to service more than 1 aircraft type. At those levels, employing 3 x 8 hour shift could mean you have fewer aircraft available.

[Meatbomb]

Tadpole,
Do you know if any of these CASA flying hours/stats include the weekly flights to Belfast that used to take place Monday and Friday before the patrols on those days??( i know these were a regular occurrence until i left the Don in 2005)

[easyrider]

No such thing as overtime in the DF, apart from maybe the civilians (there are civilian avonics inspectors employed).




Has anyone commenting actually read the VFM Report that I provided the link to??

I'm not sure how things have improved since it was published in 2006 (apart from new aircraft) but:

The CASA is now the most maintenance intenstive aircraft the AC has (6.4 hours per flight hour).

In 2002, 103 Sqn (which maintains 2 CASAs, the GIV, the BKA200, the Defender, the Cessna and the Learjet) had only 73% of its establishment. Avonics Sqn (402) had only 52% of its establishment!

In Feb 03, only 87% of maintenance personnel were actually employed on technical work, of all those employed on technical work only 14% were directly employed on aircraft maintenance in the hangers.

This means there was 33 personnel (44 if you include avonics) responsible for the servicing of 33 aircraft of 13 types. There wouldn't be main that are trained to service more than 1 aircraft type. At those levels, employing 3 x 8 hour shift could mean you have fewer aircraft available.

But in this case it seems the issue wasn't aircraft availability - it was ready for the Bray Air Show the following day; seems it was availability either of aircrew or groundcrew or both?

One advantage of using Shannon as a Forward Operating Base for one or both of the CASAs - apart from the fuel savings - would be the 24 hour availability of airport operations facilities such as ATC and fire crew.

[SARMAN]

"The CASA is now the most maintenance intenstive aircraft the AC has (6.4 hours per flight hour)."

6.4 hours per flight hour, so what your saying is if the aircraft fly's 4 hours it takes 24hours maintenance to get it flying again, this cannot be correct. Am I reading what you have posted correctly? or is this fact?

It seems to be that the poor No 1 engineers are under serious pressure with manning, so is it that the priority is on other aircraft in the hanger, i.e. MATS aircraft.

Someone might be able to answer a question that I was thinking about today, when I was in Bal the radar operators were known as SARO's never thought about it in depth @ the time but what does this stand for?

[danno]

Topcover

Having read the posts I can only conclude thar it is unfair and unreasonable to expect fulltme t/c from the IAC.

In the short term the best the Iac can do is to indicate realtime to the coastguard when it can do t/c to avoid time being lost /wasted.

In the medium term possibly the IAC might give a full t/c service for defined periods at defined intervals with RAF covering off periods allowing CASAs to do routine duties/training/maintenance etc.

In the long term perhaps the IRCG/NS/SFPA could get UAVs to fulfill all maritime recon sar etc roles leaving the IAC to reconfigure itself to provide useful air mobility for the army.The public illusion the the IAC is concerned with airspace defence should be shattered and this remit given to an enhanced ADR. The MATS toys should be dispensed with,our elected royalty can do AL/RYR the same as everybody else.

[Tadpole]

Has anyone commenting actually read the VFM Report that I provided the link to??

I'm not sure how things have improved since it was published in 2006 (apart from new aircraft) but:

The CASA is now the most maintenance intenstive aircraft the AC has (6.4 hours per flight hour).

In 2002, 103 Sqn (which maintains 2 CASAs, the GIV, the BKA200, the Defender, the Cessna and the Learjet) had only 73% of its establishment. Avonics Sqn (402) had only 52% of its establishment!

In Feb 03, only 87% of maintenance personnel were actually employed on technical work, of all those employed on technical work only 14% were directly employed on aircraft maintenance in the hangers.

This means there was 33 personnel (44 if you include avonics) responsible for the servicing of 33 aircraft of 13 types. There wouldn't be main that are trained to service more than 1 aircraft type. At those levels, employing 3 x 8 hour shift could mean you have fewer aircraft available

Well then give it to the civies and see a marked change in the morning. By the way if it takes 6.4 MMH per flight hour but you have 3 techs working the actual maintenance only takes.... anybody..... Bueller....??? Thats right 2.1 hrs. Usual AC smoke and mirrors.

In the short term the best the Iac can do is to indicate realtime to the coastguard when it can do t/c to avoid time being lost /wasted.

In all fairness to the IAC they have only had 16 years of CASA operations to prepare for 24hr operations of any kind, not just TC as you call it. I reckon by the time we have the first IAC astronaut we may actually have a 24hr cover system of some kind in Baldonnel (Although it will then be known as Dublin Cargo Airport South, DACS, when Mc Carrthey is finished his next report)

[DeV]

One advantage of using Shannon as a Forward Operating Base for one or both of the CASAs - apart from the fuel savings - would be the 24 hour availability of airport operations facilities such as ATC and fire crew.

Not sure about ATC but fire crew is 24/7 in the don as far as I know.

"The CASA is now the most maintenance intenstive aircraft the AC has (6.4 hours per flight hour)."

6.4 hours per flight hour, so what your saying is if the aircraft fly's 4 hours it takes 24hours maintenance to get it flying again, this cannot be correct. Am I reading what you have posted correctly? or is this fact?

That is fact. I presume it as Tadpole says (ie they are man hours - so if 2 people are working it takes 3.2 hours).

The 6.4 hours would be an average including pre-flight checks to overhauls.

SARO's never thought about it in depth @ the time but what does this stand for?

Sensor & Radar Operatior

In the long term perhaps the IRCG/NS/SFPA could get UAVs to fulfill all maritime recon sar etc roles

Unfortually UAVs would be as capable (eg dropping liferafts etc).

The public illusion the the IAC is concerned with airspace defence should be shattered and this remit given to an enhanced ADR.

Problem is they would have to go overseas to fire SAMs.

The MATS toys should be dispensed with,our elected royalty can do AL/RYR the same as everybody else.

Part of the problem is we have 3 different types of MATS aircraft (3 sets of spares, tools, training etc etc) - having 2/3 Learjets would be A LOT cheaper, or they could lease them.

Or as you say buy a ticket.

Usual AC smoke and mirrors.

No, thats the international recognised way of doing it.

Just had a look at Lufthansa Technik website, below is for a civilian airliner (but it gives you an idea), these are man hours figures:

Pre-flight check: 15-60 minutes
Ramp check: 6 - 35 hours
Weekly service: 10 - 15 hours
A Check (every 350-750 hours): 45 - 260 hours
C Check: 1500 - 2000 hours over 5 days