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Navy aircraft UK carrier will be sold after three years, no jets.

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  • Originally posted by spider View Post
    And whats going to happen when the carriers are completed...don't think T26 is past the concept stage...
    the PoW isn't due, iirc, to be completed till 2020, so there's plenty of time to get the T26 programme ready for build in that time. the elephant in the room however is the Scottish independance referendum...

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    • Heard lately that Faslane will remain a Gibraltar like outpost of the UK.


      Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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      • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
        the PoW isn't due, iirc, to be completed till 2020, so there's plenty of time to get the T26 programme ready for build in that time. the elephant in the room however is the Scottish independance referendum...
        That's only 7 years away.

        The Daring class took 10 years (not the projected 7) to get the 1st in class into service.

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        • Britain must renegotiate flawed aircraft carrier deals - panel
          Reuters - UK Focus

          * Aircraft carrier contract 'not fit for purpose' - lawmakers

          * Committee: Companies must shoulder more of the risks

          * Not convinced officials in control of big defence project

          By Peter Griffiths

          LONDON, Sept 3 (Reuters) - Britain should negotiate new contracts for two aircraft carriers and fighter jets to avoid the risk of budgets spiralling further out of control at taxpayers' expense, lawmakers said on Tuesday.

          The project for the biggest ships ever built for the Royal Navy has fuelled broader criticism of the defence ministry's handling of expensive weapons programmes at a time of spending cuts across the public sector.

          The programme has been dogged by rising costs, delays and indecision over the choice of aircraft since it was first announced in 2007.

          In a highly critical report, a parliamentary committee said flaws in the original contracts meant manufacturers would keep making profits even if they go over budget, leaving the state to pick up the bill.

          "Despite assurances from the department, we are not convinced that it has the aircraft contract under control," the report said. "The current carriers' contract is not fit for purpose as it fails to provide industry with any real incentive to control costs."

          The contract for the carriers' fighter jets is still too vague on budgets, delivery dates and maintenance fees for when the planes enter service, it added. The ships will use the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, built by Lockheed Martin.

          The committee said the Ministry of Defence was already holding talks with the companies building the ships: Babcock , BAE Systems (LSE: BA.L - news) and Thales UK. A spokesman for the Aircraft Carrier Alliance, the group's umbrella name, said negotiations were continuing.

          Recommendations by the committee, which scrutinises public spending, are not binding but often influence public debate on an issue.

          The repeated setbacks are embarrassing for Britain, which has the world's fourth-biggest defence budget and played a role in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

          Defence chiefs say the country needs the aircraft carriers - 920 foot (280 metres) long and with room for 40 aircraft - to sustain its ability to mount operations far from home shores.

          However, the project has become a political football for the two main parties. Launched by the last Labour government, it survived a round of spending cuts by Prime Minister David Cameron's Conservative-led coalition after it came to power in 2010.

          The committee said contractors would continue to make a profit until the 5.2 billion pounds ($8.5 billion) estimated total budget has been exceeded by 2.5 billion pounds.

          Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said his department's position was undermined by the terms of the deals.

          "We are currently negotiating with industry ... but we are doing so within the context of a contract that gives us very little negotiating leverage," he said.

          Labour accused the government of being "incompetent and wasteful".


          Britain should negotiate new contracts for two aircraft carriers and fighter jets to avoid the risk of budgets spiralling further out of control at taxpayers' expense, lawmakers said on Tuesday. The project ...


          Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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          • Published on Nov 18, 2013


            Teams in Govan fitted the massive 160 tonne diesel generators into section LB04 of HMS Prince of Wales in Govan over November 10/11


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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            • Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
              Labour accused the government of being "incompetent and wasteful".


              http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/bri...230100027.html
              The mind boggles, labour signed the contracts for both programs!
              Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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              • Most recent "in house" article on the carriers;


                The Navy's HMS Queen Elizabeth has docked in Portsmouth for the first time – where it will be stationed for the next 50 years. But how does the 280-metre, 65,000-tonne warship actually work?


                However the rrials are put back wuth no date as yet.

                SEA trials for Royal Navy’s £3.1 billion super-carrier have been delayed until summer, we can reveal. HMS Queen Elizabeth was due to undertake testing in the spring but “technical issues” have put …


                Is the quoted officer a captain or Commodore?
                Last edited by danno; 1 May 2017, 22:40.

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                • Latest simultator output;

                  Royal Navy and RAF personnel use a simulator test the new F-35 ahead of flight trials on HMS Queen Elizabeth next year.

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                  • Originally posted by danno View Post
                    Fancy fans for 30% less range when the carriers are big enough for F-35Cs using cats!
                    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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                    • Hope they enjoy watching it happen on the sims, because the real thing is still about 6 years away. By then the RN will have been 13 years without a fixed wing carrier aircraft. The F35-C is giving as much trouble as the B, with the engine melting the deck, and the arrestor hook needing redesign.The engine itself is too big to RAS when required, a new problem for the USN. They have to use V22 or CH53 to move the engine from ship to ship, after they redesign the Sealift Command supply ships to accomodate the engine. Any dings in the skin mean the aircraft must return to Lockheed for repair, and cannot be repaired aboard ship. Meanwhile Justin Trudeau has promised to Cancel Canadas order for the CF35, and has just ordered more CF 18s instead.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                      • Originally posted by The real Jack View Post
                        Fancy fans for 30% less range when the carriers are big enough for F-35Cs using cats!
                        it might be true on wikipedia, but its not true in real life.

                        landing the C is inherantly more difficult and significantly more prone to the whims of fortune of carrier aviation than the B - the oft quoted 'its got more range' is, in fact, entirely eaten up by the need to carry much larger reserves of fuel, either to hang around waiting for a slot or to go to a diversion airfield. the B on the other hand has far less problem landing in very shitty weather, is far more able to land on the carrier when another aircraft is in difficulty, and could - at a 'well, its either this or throw a £100m airframe into the sea - land on a T45/RFA/LPD. try that with a C...

                        the one advantage the C has over the B os the ability to take a 2000lb bomb internally vs the B's 1000lb bomb. thats it, everything else about operating the C is more difficult.

                        the training/refit/maintainance cycle for operating two carriers with the C would mean that there would be a gap of availability every 18 moths or so where there was no trained up air group and no operational carrier for them to fly off. the training burden of operating the B is far less - and we know this because we have ex-Harrier pilots who flew off the Invincible class flying F-35B in in the states who have also flown the F/A-18 from USN carriers - so the work up period is far shorter, meaning that with two carriers in commission we will be able to have one available at all times.

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                        • The UK haven't finalised there order of F35s yet BTW.

                          Afaik they are going to be RAF multi-role a/c manned by RAF & FAA.

                          All the pilots being embarked will need to be carrier qualified (which limits your pool of available aircrew, it's unlikely they will all be (even if simpler than cats & traps).

                          A fairly significant portion of your aircrew are going to be tied up in providing air defence to the carrier (which means obviously they need to be AD combat ready (unclear if all a/c will have AD capabilities and all aircrew will be trained to that status).

                          All in all, the RN will get its biggest ever vessels in other to carry aircraft but the combined RAF & FAA will not be able to deploy enough a/c (or aircrew) to provide more than a token carrier strike capability against near peer threats. Especially not when the same a/c and aircrew will also be required for land based ops.

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                          • My understanding is that there will be a Squadron of RN (809NAS) and Squadron of RAF (617Sqn) available to deploy aboard whichever ship is not mothballed. Presumably one to do CAP while the other does Strike. Meanwhile no sign of a dedicated AEWACS carrier aircraft in the inventory, unless you count the bolt on Crowsnest radar of the Merlin.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                            • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                              My understanding is that there will be a Squadron of RN (809NAS) and Squadron of RAF (617Sqn) available to deploy aboard whichever ship is not mothballed. Presumably one to do CAP while the other does Strike. Meanwhile no sign of a dedicated AEWACS carrier aircraft in the inventory, unless you count the bolt on Crowsnest radar of the Merlin.
                              Not sure if 100% clear yet

                              AEW&C wise AFAIK there is no proposal beyond Crowsnest

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                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                                AEW&C wise AFAIK there is no proposal beyond Crowsnest
                                The only proposal, or theoretical proposal, is an AEW version of the V-22, but it would be arse bitingly expensive and not much better than the Crowsnest system.

                                V-22 also takes up a great deal of room, and unlike Crowsnest you couldn't stick it on a T45 or RFA to squeeze more F-35 on the carriers.

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