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  1. #1
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    how much would it cost?

    How much would it cost in initial outlay for the Air Corps to get some fighter/interceptor jets.....F-16's or some reasonable alternative?

  2. #2
    Ex-bagger Big Al's Avatar
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    enough cash to buy the outer hebridies.
    You're even dumber than I tell people

    You might have been infected but you never were a bore

  3. #3
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Lets close down the Schools and Hospitals. That should fund it..however in 10 years time there will be nobody alive or smart enough to fly them.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  4. #4
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    I am just asking cos someone else asked me did I know....I am not saying we should go and buy a heap of F16's at the expense of schools etc.

    Anyone got a source where I could look it up?

  5. #5
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    About 450million if youre talking an operational (worthwhile) force of F-16 type aircraft plus minimal support infrastructure, about 200million for a smaller supportable force of F-5/M346 type aircraft for nominal air defence, training and the maintenance of a combat airforce culture in the event we ever have to do a Finland and buy top of the line fighters to defend our 5 million people.
    Finland operates 56 F-18C and 7 F-18D (their hornets have no strik/CAS role at present although it is being considered) and 52 Hawk 51, which is use for LIFT and CAS aong other things.
    On the other hand Finland has a recent history of invasion and splendid health, education and social welfare system.

    http://<br /> <a href="http://www.m...a03_en.pdf</a>
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  6. #6
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    How many f-16's would 450 million get us?

  7. #7
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Sorry that should have been 850million for 24, I forgot to calculate for maintenance rotations etc
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  8. #8
    C/S
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    if needs be, the cash could be found somewhere, and not necessarily from health and education, but the ultimate question would be how and where would we use them, how they would fit into the wider scheme of defence planning, and how would they be utilised, given that there is a minimal threat of anybody actually being able to bomb us with fighter aircraft.

  9. #9
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    Does Finland not have oil and gas fields just like Norway? Perhaps this is the reason that they have money to spend.
    Keep the speed up...!

  10. #10
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    What would be a valid alternative to F-16's?

    By the way, some of the people here - http://www.p45rant.com/boards/showth...297#post920297 - think ireland doesn't need a Defence Forces at all never mind jets.....join in the discussion and set them straight :-patriot:

  11. #11
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    ICUN, as wonderful as fighters would be think of all the other things that could be achieved by spending 850m on the DF as a whole, the IAC could have enough medium lift helicopters to provide comprehensive SAR/MPA coverage and provide airlift for the RRF BN, Fixed wing transports could be bought, the NS could replace some of the older PVs and buy a sealift vessel, the army could be brought as close to operational standards as is possible.
    I'd rather have all that than fighters that the govt would be afraid to use.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  12. #12
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    I agree Come-quickly....I just wanted to get an idea of a price to tell some people who dont think we should have a Defence Force at all, never mind jets.

    I would rather have all the more practical stuff first but i am just thinking that jets should be on the lsit of stuff we need, even only a few. I agree that medium lift choppers are a priority for the Air Corps though above anything else.

  13. #13
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    The problem is that we would be making a raw investment, where as other countries are generally approaching defense issues from the POV of existing infrastructure and missions we have none.
    We aren't replacing something, people have no idea what such equipment serves to do.

    I glanced over that other board I'm going to have enough hassle when Strummer gets all outraged at me, IMHO your best course of action is to tell them they don't deserve to be served or defended but the least the ego-hodiecentric bastards could do is allow those who are willing to deploy properly equipped forces to help people who really need to be helped around the world.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  14. #14
    Fox
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    F-16'S ALONE. IE JUST THE JETS IM TALKIN ABOUT

    F-16'S Are going for 1mil a pop in Mojave USA. In fact since the USAF stopped using the F-111 Aardvark all the rest of the "varks" have been sent to Mojave where they are kept in such a condition that they are readily available as spare parts for the RAAF or for frontline service with the RAAF.

  15. #15
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    How come they are so cheap?

  16. #16
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Always the AMARC argument, what about the cost of JP-7, weapons systems, maintenance hours avionics upgrades, systems integrations, parts, accomodation runway improvements, crew to support 24 aircraft air to air refueling arrangements for ferrying and deployment.
    Finally what would the government actually do with F-16s if they were involved in a combat mission there are enough overstrung morons in this country to elect Sinn Fein to power who'd probably scrap or plunder the DF as well as generally turning Ireland into a pariah state.
    We need to take small steps if the DF develops a modern history of popular high risk deployments, then combat aircraft might be quite a popular investment (ceterus paribus) but for the time being there is no way that any investment that big, even if airframes with engines could be acquired so cheaply would get the go ahead.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  17. #17
    Fox
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    Did you not look at my thread and read the HEADING saying "F-16'S ALONE. IE JUST THE JETS IM TALKIN ABOUT" Inever mentioned training etc.

    :flagwave:

  18. #18
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    thats like buying a drink but not wanting it in a bottle or a glass,or a container of any kind..


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  19. #19
    Brigadier General
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    8 F-16c/d's which would be enough to give us 24 hour availablity[serviceablity is about 85%]would cost about $240 million.
    Unfortunatly, there is also a few bob to be spent on other things, before these jets could be put in place.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  20. #20
    Brigadier General
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    I have ploughed through the drivel on that site found from ICUN's link, I even registered on the site with the intention of adding to the inferno within.
    The arguments for us having or not having an air-defence system have their own degree of seriousness, no matter how lightly, or otherwise, we choose to take them. But once someone has sank to a level of stupidity where he starts making a case for the disposal of the defence force, then he is beyond any form of help, and is best forgotten about.
    The funny thing is, and I think this is f**king hilarious, is that one of the seriously anti-defence force types, [I know the chap thru' another website, he is frighteningly serious]is studieing for an occupation that has a high degree of defence applications, the irony of it is extreme. No! I am not going to name him.:D :D :D

    I think it would be unwise for a lot of us to wade into that board and futher muddy the waters, IMHO, but I will certainly continue following the discussion for any futher light-relife.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  21. #21
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    I still say wait till we can garner public approval for peace enforcement ops, then mention that if they want to keep patting themselves on the back for what the DF is out doing they'll need to cough up a bit more...
    But even then I can't see support for deploying fighter bombers overseas at the cost that it entails and if we're going for a pure training air defense air frame my money would be on four T-50s followed by 8 F-50s over the next two years, that way we'd have a sufficient force to have an ADF standby system and provide training and short term emergency support to army peace suport operations.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  22. #22
    Brigadier General
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    Sorry , is it the KIA T-50/A-50 you mean?
    I am not disagreeing with you but we do appear to be dealing with 2, albeit very similiar, aircrafts here, but there again, I suppose in the far more unlikely, [however desirable] possablity of getting F-16's, these would have to be split between 'C's and 'D' models.
    If we are to continue deludeing ourselves that the irish government might get off it's fat assets and do something about air-defence, and a limited air-support role, then the Jaguar International, IMHO, should be considerd as well.
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

  23. #23
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    Yes I am referring to the KAI T-50/F-50 (the pure attack designation has been dropped), and althoough it shares significant components with the Viper it is a smaller cheaper (both buy and fly) aircraft, hence its potential as an F-5 replacement.
    It would also be a new aircraft with up to date avionics that would not need upgradeing for some years.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

  24. #24
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    Couple of other things to keep in mind C-Q; the T-50 is a Korean aircraft and while it seems to fit your criteria fairly closely, you can't rule out the fact that there will always be pressure on us to buy European. There are practical reasons why we should do so too; support, spares and service would be much more accessible from other countries within the EU.

    In any case, the EADS MAKO seems to be much better bet for such an contract in the unlikely scenario that such aircraft were acquired. And to be able to ensure even a token force, there would need to be more than 12 aircraft in the fleet. Something like 20-24 would be a more realistic assessment.

  25. #25
    Commandant Come-quickly's Avatar
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    True but there will always be pressure from someone, if KAI and or GD are in a dry patch there may well be US pressure.
    The M-346 is on the verge of series production which would play in its favour but I can't see any move towards any such purchase in the current decade which would make EADS and KAI equally valid contenders.
    As for the likelyhood of such a purchase I've already stated it as nil thank you very much.
    "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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