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  1. #76
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    For the imo obsession with buying 90mm versions some pause for thought

    https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...-ammo-defence/
    Last edited by paul g; 11th January 2020 at 15:34.

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    For the imo obsession with buying 90mm versions some pause for thought

    https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...-ammo-defence/
    If that's the case, we'll definitely get them.
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  5. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul g View Post
    For the imo obsession with buying 90mm versions some pause for thought

    https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-ne...-ammo-defence/
    I think the most intriguing part of that story is
    . The independent military trade union ACMP...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  6. #79
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    Given that the AML shook bits off itself when it fired, it wouldnt be the first time we bought equipment that was technically unsafe. As for those Belgian guns, if they can fire HE, they can fire HEAT, so it may be an APFSDS round that is the issue.

  7. #80
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    If they were purchased and deployed by Ireland, would it be to anywhere that the lack of APFSDS would be an issue? A 90mm HE round would cause a significant emotional event for the occupants of a technical, for example.

    Of more concern might be that there only appears to be only one manufacturer of both the gun and the ammunition, which could lead to problems if anything happened in the future to either.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  8. #81
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    We ended up sourcing 90mm from south africa, which was slightly different spec and dimension of the original. It didnt fit in the racks, but it fired fine. Prior to that we were getting it from the Israelis.
    If you put a tender out, people in the trade respond. Sounds like Belgium were tied to local supplier at home.
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  10. #82
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    The Belgians do not consider this vehicle as a tank hunter as 10 years ago they knew that the 90mm APFSDS round would not defeat modern MBTs, hence why 10 years ago they cut the order from 40 to 18. The designation of Piranha IIIC DF90 gives a clue to there intended role, that is of direct fire support, so local mobile artillery.

    The M690A1 APFSDS-T round for the 90mm gun has a performance of 300mm RHA at 200m which is 60% of a 105mm round at the same range. However the main round is the M691A2 HEP-T which is Belgian for HESH. This allows the vehicle to tackle lightly armoured vehicle, bunkers and other strong points. Much better to take out something with a round costing 1% that of a nice new Javelin.

    Problems with 90mm APFSDS are not unique to the Mk8 gun, the French had a similar problem with the GIAT F4 guns which they solve a bit by replacing the muzzle break with one more like that from the AMX13. But given that Belgium has decided to replace both the Piranha, Pandur and Dingo vehicles with the VBMR Griffon and the EBRC Jaguar I do not see them trying to incorporate new capabilities such as tank killing at this stage.

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  12. #83
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    How did the Belgians end up with a CMI 90mm turret on a MOWAG firing MECAR ammo?

    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...car#post170432

    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...l=1#post202592

  13. #84
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    if 90mm is no longer a NATO standard calibre round...what are the newer, standard alternatives for mobile DF guns??
    Questions then are:
    1. Can said guns go on our P111's or a close variant?
    2. Do we want Cav DF capabilities (where does it fit with current doctrine as opposed Cav had 90mm in past so must continue to have something similar)
    3. Would mobile arty (not towed) be a better use of hulls?
    4. would mobile arty, if possible, provide better range, capabilities, survivability of towed 105 or 120mm?

    Discuss.....
    Fate whispers to the warrior, "There is a storm coming"

    And the warrior whispers back "I am the storm".

  14. #85
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    I'll take a crack at question 3. The Patria Nemo is a solid contender for this. Allows a Mowag to mount a 120mm Mortar.

    It allows for direct and indirect fire, and the 120mm Mortar round is not a small payload in explosive terms. WRT going back to the Chad model of overseas mission, a Nemo equipped vehicle in a patrol would allow for an 8km bubble of indirect fire support around the patrol, in both HE and ILLUM, using current stocks of ammunition. As an added bonus, the system can be mounted on a TEU container, as carried by DROPS, and emplaced in a camp/ fob to provide base defence out to 8km in a 6400 arc.

    The 30mm is a worthy round in an anti armour role, the GMG is a capable anti personnel round. Add a fire support vehicle with a UAV asset to the mix and a cav troop/ armoured patrol can suddenly reach out well beyond the reach of most any SACLOS weapons used, as well as tackle more stubborn non armoured targets in the direct role.
    Last edited by Captain Edmund Blackadder; 13th January 2020 at 19:13.
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  16. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    if 90mm is no longer a NATO standard calibre round...what are the newer, standard alternatives for mobile DF guns??
    Questions then are:
    1. Can said guns go on our P111's or a close variant?
    2. Do we want Cav DF capabilities (where does it fit with current doctrine as opposed Cav had 90mm in past so must continue to have something similar)
    3. Would mobile arty (not towed) be a better use of hulls?
    4. would mobile arty, if possible, provide better range, capabilities, survivability of towed 105 or 120mm?

    Discuss.....
    The NATO standard would be 105mm or 120mm for AT duties. Seeing as these guns would likely tip over the P111 if fired (Australian experiments with 105mm led to the ASLAV overturning every time it fired at anything off centre).
    However the Americans have managed to get the M1128 Mobile Gun System to work with a 105mm gun on a Stryker (Cousin of the P111). It works and is combat tested, but the big problem with it is that "It is not a Tank". Combat experience has shown that mobile guns are a compromise that can never compete with an actual tank.

  17. #87
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    Bear in mind that if you go to Africa for a fight, you'll encounter predominantly Russian or Chinese kit with some legacy French stuff, as well as the now standard "technical" carrying anything you can think of, so you have to be able to survive contact with 7.62/12.7/14.5/23/37/57/75/82/90/100/105/122 and 155mm calibres, in all sorts of shapes and forms and the usual plentiful RPG and the ever present T-55 tank, BTR and BMP variants ad nauseam, as well as the sort of ATGM fielded in Syria and other sandy parts,not to mind plentiful SAMs from the basic SA-7 right up to top-tier BUK missiles, myriad mines underfoot and lots of legacy Russian aircraft as well. If the Irish go into Africa (further South than usual), I really hope they bring a mobile gun system with them, even a towed gun, not just 30mm and 12.7mm, as even the lowest toerag "militia" is sporting some very deadly kit these days. No doubt, current threat assessment is very good and probably well up to speed, but I always have a niggling feeling that our lads tend to go out underequipped in sheer firepower terms and have been lucky.

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  19. #88
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    One of the more recent africa ops exposed the weakness of the AML90 in a modern environment.
    Unfortunately, we remain without a replacement for this type of asset.
    Armoured recce, with enough punch to act as overwatch for other armour.
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  21. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Bear in mind that if you go to Africa for a fight, you'll encounter predominantly Russian or Chinese kit with some legacy French stuff, as well as the now standard "technical" carrying anything you can think of, so you have to be able to survive contact with 7.62/12.7/14.5/23/37/57/75/82/90/100/105/122 and 155mm calibres, in all sorts of shapes and forms and the usual plentiful RPG and the ever present T-55 tank, BTR and BMP variants ad nauseam, as well as the sort of ATGM fielded in Syria and other sandy parts,not to mind plentiful SAMs from the basic SA-7 right up to top-tier BUK missiles, myriad mines underfoot and lots of legacy Russian aircraft as well. If the Irish go into Africa (further South than usual), I really hope they bring a mobile gun system with them, even a towed gun, not just 30mm and 12.7mm, as even the lowest toerag "militia" is sporting some very deadly kit these days. No doubt, current threat assessment is very good and probably well up to speed, but I always have a niggling feeling that our lads tend to go out underequipped in sheer firepower terms and have been lucky.
    Has happened to irish troops in the past - Battle of At-Tiri required an AML-90 to be able to take on DFF forces and Dutch TOW equipped M113s kept Israeli tanks at bay. Nothing puts manners on people like a big gun.

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  23. #90
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    Even going back to the Congo, the lads were going out with less firepower than the mercenaries they faced and guns were idle in the gun parks at home. These days in Mali, there's a lot of deadly kit being used against the local Army and the rebels are routinely winning the firefight. I'll bet there are a few nervous twitches in DFHQ every time they hear of yet another rebel attack on the Malian army.

  24. #91
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    Apart from the 120 mortar, have we ever deployed artillery overseas?
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  25. #92
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Apart from the 120 mortar, have we ever deployed artillery overseas?
    Field Arty - no afaik - to ONUC and UNIFIL not sure about elsewhere

    Did AD 40mm’s get deployed to ONUC ?

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  27. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Edmund Blackadder View Post
    I'll take a crack at question 3. The Patria Nemo is a solid contender for this. Allows a Mowag to mount a 120mm Mortar.

    It allows for direct and indirect fire, and the 120mm Mortar round is not a small payload in explosive terms. WRT going back to the Chad model of overseas mission, a Nemo equipped vehicle in a patrol would allow for an 8km bubble of indirect fire support around the patrol, in both HE and ILLUM, using current stocks of ammunition. As an added bonus, the system can be mounted on a TEU container, as carried by DROPS, and emplaced in a camp/ fob to provide base defence out to 8km in a 6400 arc.

    The 30mm is a worthy round in an anti armour role, the GMG is a capable anti personnel round. Add a fire support vehicle with a UAV asset to the mix and a cav troop/ armoured patrol can suddenly reach out well beyond the reach of most any SACLOS weapons used, as well as tackle more stubborn non armoured targets in the direct role.
    The Patria NEMO is a nice system but is a bit on the expensive side. It has an older sidling the AMOS twin barrel turret in service with the Finns and both have been fitted to multiple 8x8 platforms. The sheltered version of the NEMO is really interesting especially seeing how most artillery in the past few years has been semi-fixed at FSBs. An alternative would be the HSW M120 (120mm) turret that the Poles have fitted to two different vehicles including a 8x8. It offers the same options as the Patia offerings (direct & indirect) and is now in full production, hence the price should be completive.

    One could think of fitting either a CMI XM8 or OTO Melara Hitfact 105/120 turret to a PIII but given the limited number we have I would rather see something else. The Italians have the Centauro MGS of which they still have around 260 in service. These they are replacing with the Centauro II. Maybe we could do a deal for some their Centauros with some upgrades. A proposal could be:

    28x Centauro either with the original 105mm or upgraded to the 120mm as was done for Oman. This would allow each for 2 full Cavalry Squadrons each with 14 vehicles.
    8x Centauro refitted with the HSW M120 turret, allowing for 2 batteries of 4 units
    2x Centauro refitted as Artillery Fire Control Vehicles
    2x Centauro refitted as Armoured Recovery Vehicles
    4x Centauro refitted as Armoured Engineering |Vehicles/Manoeuvre Support Vehicles
    2x Centauro refitted as Armoured Bridge Vehicles

  28. #94
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Is there anyone (apart from Belgium with their 90mm on Piranha III and the US with 105mm MGS on Stryker) with a 90/105/120mm DF gun on a MOWAG Piranha ?

    Commonality is very important - especially as we need such a small amount of vehicles and manpower is an issue

  29. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Is there anyone (apart from Belgium with their 90mm on Piranha III and the US with 105mm MGS on Stryker) with a 90/105/120mm DF gun on a MOWAG Piranha ?

    Commonality is very important - especially as we need such a small amount of vehicles and manpower is an issue
    The Saudi National Guard have LAV111 fitted with a CMI 105mm, but no other major Piranha/LAV user.

    Commonality is good but not essential, we have in the past few years retired two type of AFV, the AML's and the Scorpions. The Piranha IIIH are only operated by the Danes (22) and ourselves so there is not going to be a lot of the same vehicle around.

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  31. #96
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The Saudi National Guard have LAV111 fitted with a CMI 105mm, but no other major Piranha/LAV user.

    Commonality is good but not essential, we have in the past few years retired two type of AFV, the AML's and the Scorpions. The Piranha IIIH are only operated by the Danes (22) and ourselves so there is not going to be a lot of the same vehicle around.
    Although commonality with other nations is good ... I actually meant commonality within the DF fleet.

    We have 80 MOWAG Piranhas currently. At times serviceability and availability will be issues due to lack of spares and personnel.

    Realistically the max of any kind of medium gun (90+ MM) AFV would be less than 15. Makes no sense at that level to introduce a new type, especially when the Cav already have Piranhas

  32. #97
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    That all depends on how deep the commonality reaches, right down to nuts and bolts, literally, apart from the basics of wheels/optics/engine/gearbox/geartrain/undercarriage/doors and hatches. Commonality is a very nice word but quite often the manufacturer won't play ball and submodels will have the same bolts given a different part number so you have to buy individual parts for that submodel at greatly increased cost...commonality also depends on cooperation between operators in an Army. If the Base Workshops won't share parts with the field units, then the system grinds to a halt very quickly and you get vehicles off road and unavailable because Unit A is hoarding hatch seals and Unit B has leaky vehicles and the expensive electronics are getting wet everytime you go up to the Glen.....Also, the tendency for all armies to make sure that their vehicles are entirely unique is guaranteed to harden a QM's heart and annoy the end user because his "unique" parts set is only made on special order by the manufacturer, who is sitting on his yacht at St Tropez,lighting his Cohibas with burning 50 euro notes, all because armies won't buy genuinely compatible vehicles.

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  34. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Although commonality with other nations is good ... I actually meant commonality within the DF fleet.

    We have 80 MOWAG Piranhas currently. At times serviceability and availability will be issues due to lack of spares and personnel.

    Realistically the max of any kind of medium gun (90+ MM) AFV would be less than 15. Makes no sense at that level to introduce a new type, especially when the Cav already have Piranhas
    Why less than 15?

    It was only a proposal amongst us, but we did but 14 Scorpions while we had 20 AML90's. Restoring that capability would be 2 Squadrons of 14 vehicles each, one per Brigade.
    What is the problem with expanding the Cavalry, the role we are pushing is ISTAR and here more cavalry is good. An UN operation that needs basic foot soldiers will not get the numbers from us, there are too many Third World nations offering large numbers of these troops. So as a rich nation we should take a high level. We only have 80 MOWAGs, that is not a lot, now we have converted more to CRV this will have an impact on the number available to transport troops. I just thought the idea of getting around 50 Centauro hull from the Italians might be a relative cheap option for the short term. Best would be to replace all with a common vehicle platform starting in 2030 through to 2040.

  35. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Apart from the 120 mortar, have we ever deployed artillery overseas?
    Do the AML60s count?

  36. #100
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Why less than 15?

    It was only a proposal amongst us, but we did but 14 Scorpions while we had 20 AML90's. Restoring that capability would be 2 Squadrons of 14 vehicles each, one per Brigade.
    What is the problem with expanding the Cavalry, the role we are pushing is ISTAR and here more cavalry is good. An UN operation that needs basic foot soldiers will not get the numbers from us, there are too many Third World nations offering large numbers of these troops. So as a rich nation we should take a high level. We only have 80 MOWAGs, that is not a lot, now we have converted more to CRV this will have an impact on the number available to transport troops. I just thought the idea of getting around 50 Centauro hull from the Italians might be a relative cheap option for the short term. Best would be to replace all with a common vehicle platform starting in 2030 through to 2040.
    I went for 15 as that would be a troop per squadron and a few spare or all of 1ACS

    Ah got you

    But Cav also need dismounts to do some of their roles so you need something to carry them (MOWAGs or Freccia’s ?) but again it’s adding a different vehicle type.

    We had a long discussion previously https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...ighlight=ORBAT
    Last edited by DeV; 16th January 2020 at 20:10.

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